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Any JW want to take a stab at this one?

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I guess the idea of having to back up his brag scared the bejesus out of JJ.

You are hilarious Sapiens. Are you used to people hanging off your every word? What an ego! And a misogynist to boot! Why am not surprised?

I was actually putting some time into another response.....

Are you used to people surrendering? Bowing to your superior knowledge?

Don't hold your breath with me sunshine. You haven't got anything to "prove" your position....no matter how technical you make the argument....it is all supposition, based on what evolutionists want to believe.
 

McBell

Unbound
You are hilarious Sapiens. Are you used to people hanging off your every word? What an ego! And a misogynist to boot! Why am not surprised?

I was actually putting some time into another response.....

Are you used to people surrendering? Bowing to your superior knowledge?

Don't hold your breath with me sunshine. You haven't got anything to "prove" your position....no matter how technical you make the argument....it is all supposition, based on what evolutionists want to believe.
Any one paying any attention in this thread knows you won't stop.
The Watchtower has far to much bullsh... misinformation for you to copy/paste
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I believe that our lives are on record with the Creator...so yes, and all that happens in life is taken into our own memory and recorded. There is no edit or delete button. We are the directors of our own movie....yet the life you have is totally taken for granted. You don't care how it began...only how it changed...I find that rather a stunted exercise.



Try these.....





Now tell me how this mindless plant designed this clever mechanism called pollination.
The plant did not.
Tell me this is not designed.
OK ... this is not designed, it is selected for.
Then tell me how those butterflies and birds migrate thousands of miles to places they have never been.
To put it most simply, those that couldn't make the trip did not do as well as those that could.
Everything in me screams praise to the Designer.
That just exposes the falacy of your claim to understand evolution, BTW, how about that test?
What makes you think I haven't?
The fact that your questions are singularly ignorant.
When blind Freddy can see what is obvious...it takes someone pretty brainwashed to go against their common sense.
You are having trouble telling the difference between your cognitive bias and common sense, it is a typical psychiatric problem with people who share you belief system.

Jim Taylor of the Univ. of San Francisco suggests, "We need to engage in 'reasoned sense' that includes both extensive direct experience and critical thinking. Taking steps that include the informal use of the scientific method can help us make better decisions."

You are way short on direct experience, critical thinking and use of the scientific method ... three strikes and you're out.
Here is one of those computer animations that take imagination to whole new level....if you didn't know better, you would find this very convincing. Certain species of lizards that can glide are presented as proof that this is how birds evolved from reptiles.....yet we have possums that glide...? What is that proof of?

You embedded link does not work. Anyway, much as I enjoy David Attenboro, that's entertainment not science.
They were two entirely different breeds and they adapted quite quickly to the change in their environment. It was a program instilled by the Creator. They did not develop this ability over millenniums of evolution.
Most all furred animals are capable of responding to warmth by thinning their fur and to cold by thickening it. That is hardly surprising, if you had a better biological background you'd know that ... it's not a miracle, god did not do it.
You yourselves are missing so much by denying the works of the greatest scientist in existence. You are spiritually blind and yet you have no idea how sad your condition is and ultimately where it will lead you.
As previously noted that is an unsupported claim.
None of your "evidence" is proof of anything. It is only meaningful to those who accept the guesswork of evolutionary science....I don't, and never will because I see through the assumptions masquerading as facts.
Actually you fail to see reality because of your cognitive bias.
You know what's funny...you can't see past your own bias. If you are convinced that a never ending string of fortunate accidents created all we see on this planet, then you are welcome to that. I believe what I see with my own eyes and all my instincts tell me that life is no accident and that all we see has a purpose. The Bible tells us what that purpose is.
The bible is just mythology. You need to learn more about bias: List of cognitive biases - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes, families of animals designed and created for specific habitat and food supply. Beautifully adapted and programmed for small changes to facilitate an environmental differences affecting food supply and climate change.
Taxonomic groupings are also mythological, they have no more reality basis that your "kinds." You need to study cladistics to understand evolution and speciation. If you do not understand cladistics you do not, as you claim, understand evolution.
Anyone who denies the existence of the one who is responsible for our being here and the planet we call home is the victim of a conspiracy, which is also explained in the Bible...long before evolution was even thought about.
Got any support for that concept besides fallacious circular reasoning concerning the bible?
"Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness.....even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever".(Rom 1:25) You give creation the credit for its own existence.
There you go with that circular reasoning again ... doesn't cut it.
Funny, but that is the way evolutionists paint those who believe in God. Are we supposed to not feel insulted as well?
Is stating facts insulting to you? Too bad. I gave you a chance to show your stuff and you failed.
We are not uneducated morons either.
Prove it.
We simply choose to believe what the Bible says over what fallible humans, who could change their minds with tomorrow's discovery. The Bible has not changed its stance on creation since it was written.
and the bible was no more correct when it was written then it is today ... mythology is just mythology .
Evolution is a baby compared with the Bible.
Evolution goes back over 3.5 billion years, as a theory it predates the bible by about 500 years. Get yourself and education.
Yes, so don't call your drawings "facts" OK? They are as accurate as evolution wants to paint them.
The illustrations are as accurate as inference can make them, only the colors are imaginative.
All life comes from pre-existing life...we all know that....but the process of reproduction, regardless of the species, is miraculous, none the less. A human embryo would be rejected as foreign tissue if it were not for trophoblast cells allowing implantation. You all take these amazing processes for granted as products of mindless evolution...giving praise to the creation rather than to the master designer behind it. I just don't know how you do that. That is way more of a fairy story than what you think we believe.
You still have yet to show any support for your "master designer." It nice that you have an invisible friend, my daughter gave hers up at age eight.
There is no "proof" of expanded speciation as evolutionists want us to believe. There is no evidence to confirm that as fact...there is supposition and assumptions but no solid facts.
The is ream after ream of evidence, you simple don't know that. You who claim to "know all about evolution." You don't know jack.
This is something that evolutionists gloss over with their "might haves" and "could haves". It is dishonest to say it is fact when it is not. How hard is it to admit that? You have a belief system based on the writings of those who interpret the evidence. You trust what they say. Why do you howl us down for the same thing?
No one claims "facts" that not science, we deal in probabilities and likelihoods. You deal in lies and misunderstandings.
We trust the Creator and his word. You can downgrade religion and the nonsense it has taught over the centuries...but don't throw the baby out with the very muddy bathwater.
We have strained the water through a fine filter, there's no baby there, it's all in your imagination. Must have been a hysterical pregnancy.
Everything about the process changes when you add a Creator who has told us about the way he brought life into existence on this planet. There are genetic roadblocks that of necessity mean that evolution is a clever lie.....perpetrated by God's enemy to take humankind away from belief in him. Thankfully he hasn't succeeded with all of us.
Everything would change if you could add a creator, but there are none available.
I will take God's word, that has been around for thousands of years,
You are assuming that there is a god, a point that has yet to be demonstrated.
over the assumptions of godless men who only sprang up relatively recently....
Actually your theology is only 19 years older than I am, about the same age as my mom.
and often so full of themselves. They have become 'gods' to those who hang off their every word.
I hang on no ones words and none hang on mine.
We all have choices and we will all feel the consequences of our choices one day. Believe it or not.....
I feel the consequences my choices every day.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You are hilarious Sapiens. Are you used to people hanging off your every word? What an ego! And a misogynist to boot! Why am not surprised?

I was actually putting some time into another response.....

Are you used to people surrendering? Bowing to your superior knowledge?

Don't hold your breath with me sunshine. You haven't got anything to "prove" your position....no matter how technical you make the argument....it is all supposition, based on what evolutionists want to believe.
No, I'm used to people keeping their word. You ready to put up or shut up on you claim of "knowing evolution" or you just trying to hide from the fact that your mouth made an appointment your mind's not up to keeping?

Rest assured that I will remind you of this failure on your part whenever you enter a thread that I am active in.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
No, I'm used to people keeping their word. You ready to put up or shut up on you claim of "knowing evolution" or you just trying to hide from the fact that your mouth made an appointment your mind's not up to keeping?

Rest assured that I will remind you of this failure on your part whenever you enter a thread that I am active in.

Wow...post #145 was meant to be a response?...but look at what you said as a rebuttal...absolutely nothing. o_O

I know enough about evolution....I don't have to know all there is to know about a belief system to know it doesn't hold water. I understand that the elements presented as facts are only based on interpretation of circumstantial evidence. Men have been sent to the gallows on the testimony of circumstantial evidence, but proven years later to have been innocent. So these are nothing more than the educated guesses of evolutionists who all uphold a single belief system. All have a vested interest in it being "right". All patted on the back by their peers. Smug in their superior knowledge.
But theory is theory...it is what someone "believes" happened based on interpretation of evidence.....evolution does not qualify as true science because it is not provable.

Now I am left to wonder if you have nothing better to do with all that intelligence and education? I had you pegged for someone wiser than a simple egomaniac. You don't like it when people disagree with you do you?

Please go your hardest and prove to me that evolution is an established fact.....but you must keep it simple for us uneducated morons...OK? My mind is up to keeping any appointment made....it just can't be changed by people pretending to have real evidence when they don't. There can be no "might have's," or "could have's" or "we are led to believe's"...facts do not need those disclaimers.

Let's hear it......:)
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Wow...post #145 was meant to be a response?...but look at what you said as a rebuttal...absolutely nothing. o_O

I know enough about evolution....
Ready to prove it? I don't think you know a damned thing about it.
I don't have to know all there is to know about a belief system to know it doesn't hold water
Wrong.
I understand that the elements presented as facts are only based on interpretation of circumstantial evidence.
Wrong.
Men have been sent to the gallows on the testimony of circumstantial evidence, but proven years later to have been innocent.
and the relevance is?.
So these are nothing more than the educated guesses of evolutionists who all uphold a single belief system.
Wrong.
All have a vested interest in it being "right".
Wrong.
All patted on the back by their peers.
Wrong.
Smug in their superior knowledge.
Wrong.
But theory is theory...it is what someone "believes" happened based on interpretation of evidence.....evolution does not qualify as true science because it is not provable.
Wrong, you don't even know what a "theory" is do you?.
Now I am left to wonder if you have nothing better to do with all that intelligence and education?
Wrong. I am wasting time waiting for some one.
I had you pegged for someone wiser than a simple egomaniac. You don't like it when people disagree with you do you?
Wrong. I love it when smart, insightful and eloquent people disagree with me ... ignorant, blind fools are another story.
Please go your hardest and prove to me that evolution is an established fact.....but you must keep it simple for us uneducated morons...OK?
No, I hold you to your boast, you know about evolution. Now are you telling us that was not true?
My mind is up to keeping any appointment made....it just can't be changed by people pretending to have real evidence when they don't. There can be no "might have's," or "could have's" or "we are led to believe's"...facts do not need those disclaimers.

Let's hear it......:)
Wrong, you already broke faith and chickened out. I do not suffer fools gladly and I do not pass out second chances ... you are a fraud and have demonstrated that fact ... nothing more need be done, save perhaps adding you to my ignore list.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Ready to prove it? I don't think you know a damned thing about it.
Wrong.Wrong.and the relevance is?.Wrong.Wrong.Wrong.Wrong.Wrong, you don't even know what a "theory" is do you?.Wrong. I am wasting time waiting for some one.Wrong. I love it when smart, insightful and eloquent people disagree with me ... ignorant, blind fools are another story.No, I hold you to your boast, you know about evolution. Now are you telling us that was not true?Wrong, you already broke faith and chickened out. I do not suffer fools gladly and I do not pass out second chances ... you are a fraud and have demonstrated that fact ... nothing more need be done, save perhaps adding you to my ignore list.

Another post full of nothing.....when did I chicken out?

I ask you to prove your case and you are basically running away? OK. :) Being added to your ignore list would be my pleasure.
We can see that you have nothing to offer but insults anyway. o_O
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I'd guess it goes back to your early childhood, but I really don't know. Bye, wish I could say it have been fun, or useful, or enlightening, or entertaining, but it wasn't.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So "kinds" are those which do not become something outside of their designation and habitat. Sea creatures do not become land animals and vice versa.
You are forgetting hippopotamus and crocodiles can stay in both land and waters, as do penguin, platypuses and turtles, and how about crabs. Or how about seals?

Some that preferred the water, and yet they don't have gills.

Creatures that creeps, tends to live on land, such as snakes, and yet there are sea snakes, there are few species that can move on land but their natural habitat is in the water.

Flying creatures would include all winged things. Their "kind" would keep insects as insects and birds as birds, bats as bats. The creeping animals are also another "kind". It seems very clear to me. I believe that science supports Genesis.
Chicken, ostriches, emu, lyre-birds, peacocks, kiwis, (the extinct dodos), and again penguins are all listed as birds, and yet none of them ever fly in the sky. Having wings, apparently doesn't guarantee flight.

You really kinda don't know what you are talking about.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
You are forgetting hippopotamus and crocodiles can stay in both land and waters, as do penguin, platypuses and turtles, and how about crabs. Or how about seals?

Some that preferred the water, and yet they don't have gills.

And why do you claim that these creatures are not designed to be exactly what they are? Are amphibious creatures a proof of evolution? Only in your imagination. Who said it had anything to do with preference? It is so by design.

Creatures that creeps, tends to live on land, such as snakes, and yet there are sea snakes, there are few species that can move on land but their natural habitat is in the water.

Yes, designed to live in both realms. Clever of God to do that. Air breathing creatures that live in the water....whales, dolphins, dugongs, etc, are all designed to inhabit water, but breathe air.....creation is not boring, is it?

Chicken, ostriches, emu, lyre-birds, peacocks, kiwis, (the extinct dodos), and again penguins are all listed as birds, and yet none of them ever fly in the sky. Having wings, apparently doesn't guarantee flight.

Some of those you mention can fly, but just not very far.....yet all still qualify as "winged creatures". So do bats but they are not birds.
Some lizards and possums can fly (glide) but they are not technically winged, are they?

It's all about variety and there is certainly no shortage of that.

You really kinda don't know what you are talking about.

So should you. :)
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Some of those you mention can fly, but just not very far.....yet all still qualify as "winged creatures". So do bats but they are not birds.
"And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; the bat."

Leviticus 11: 13-19
13 “And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, 14 the kite, the falcon of any kind, 15 every raven of any kind, 16 the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the short-eared owl, 18 the barn owl, the tawny owl, the carrion vulture, 19 the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; the bat."

Leviticus 11: 13-19
13 “And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, 14 the kite, the falcon of any kind, 15 every raven of any kind, 16 the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the short-eared owl, 18 the barn owl, the tawny owl, the carrion vulture, 19 the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

Look it up. The word translated "bird" also applies to bugs in the Bible.

Hebrew Concordance: hā·‘ō·wp̄ -- 14 Occurrences

Leviticus 11:21 Hebrew Text Analysis

There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Look it up. The word translated "bird" also applies to bugs in the Bible.
But that's not the message the Bible is sending. By using the word "bird" the Bible is indicating the animal as defined by that word.

bird

[burd]

noun
1.any warm-blooded vertebrate of the class Aves, having a body covered with feathers, forelimbs modified into wings, scaly legs, a beak, and no teeth, and bearing young in a hard-shelled egg.​


There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground.
What insects are those?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
And why do you claim that these creatures are not designed to be exactly what they are? Are amphibious creatures a proof of evolution? Only in your imagination. Who said it had anything to do with preference? It is so by design.

Genesis 1:20-23 are not very specific about any type of animals. It only give very brief and very generalized description in a couple of short verses.

It listed birds as every winged creatures being able to fly, but clearly a number of birds that I have already listed cannot fly. The penguin for example, are land animals, but they can swim better than they can walk, and despite being birds, they certainly couldn't fly.

And as skwim have already pointed out, Leviticus (11:13, 19) clearly list bats as being birds, but they are not birds at all. They are simply mammals with wings. Clearly God or Moses don't know what bats are, because they are primitive idiots.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
"And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; the bat."

Leviticus 11: 13-19
13 “And these you shall detest among the birds; they shall not be eaten; they are detestable: the eagle, the bearded vulture, the black vulture, 14 the kite, the falcon of any kind, 15 every raven of any kind, 16 the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk of any kind, 17 the little owl, the cormorant, the short-eared owl, 18 the barn owl, the tawny owl, the carrion vulture, 19 the stork, the heron of any kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.

Do you think that the Jewish Bible would be able to translate its own scripture correctly Skwim?

Leviticus 11:13-19 “‘The following creatures of the air are to be detestable for you — they are not to be eaten, they are a detestable thing: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, the kite, the various kinds of buzzards, the various kinds of ravens, the ostrich, the screech-owl, the seagull, the various kinds of hawks, the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, the horned owl, the pelican, the barn owl, the stork, the various kinds of herons, the hoopoe and the bat." (CJB)

Not birds....that is a bad translation.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Locusts....like John the Baptist ate.
Locusts (a particular form of 9 species of grasshoppers), like all grasshoppers use all six legs to walk.


Do you think that the Jewish Bible would be able to translate its own scripture correctly Skwim?

Leviticus 11:13-19 “‘The following creatures of the air are to be detestable for you —

Not birds....that is a bad translation.

Torah-The Pentateuch

Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 11

13
And among birds, you shall hold these in abomination; they shall not be eaten; they are an abomination: The eagle [or the griffin vulture], the kite, the osprey, יגוְאֶת אֵלֶּה תְּשַׁקְּצוּ מִן הָעוֹף לֹא יֵאָכְלוּ שֶׁקֶץ הֵם אֶת הַנֶּשֶׁר וְאֶת הַפֶּרֶס וְאֵת הָעָזְנִיָּה:
.
 
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JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Locusts (a particular form of 9 species of grasshoppers), like all grasshoppers use all six legs to walk.

Leviticus 11:20-23.....“‘All winged swarming creatures that go on all fours are a detestable thing for you; except that of all winged swarming creatures that go on all fours, you may eat those that have jointed legs above their feet, enabling them to jump off the ground. Specifically, of these you may eat the various kinds of locusts, grasshoppers, katydids and crickets. But other than that, all winged swarming creatures having four feet are a detestable thing for you." (CJB)​


-The Pentateuch

Vayikra - Leviticus - Chapter 11

13
And among birds, you shall hold these in abomination; they shall not be eaten; they are an abomination: The eagle [or the griffin vulture], the kite, the osprey, יגוְאֶת אֵלֶּה תְּשַׁקְּצוּ מִן הָעוֹף לֹא יֵאָכְלוּ שֶׁקֶץ הֵם אֶת הַנֶּשֶׁר וְאֶת הַפֶּרֶס וְאֵת הָעָזְנִיָּה:
.
From Strong's Concordance......the word translated "birds" in your example.....

Transliteration
`owph

Pronunciation
ōfe עוּף (H5774)


Outline of Biblical Usage
  1. flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds
    1. fowl, birds

    2. winged insects.

      Not just birds.
 
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