Anything Goes LDS Thread (Everyone Welcome)

[Francine]

I appreciate your efforts on this forum. I enjoy learning things about the Ctholic religion but going out of my way to learn about Catholicsm isn't my greatest priority right now.

Thank you. But the forum is becoming a god. I need to dial it way back.

 

[FFH]

No, they left the book of Mormon on November 1st and I read it in two weeks. I engaged in a series of discussions about the BoM that more or less mirror what you have seen here. In the fullness of time it came to pass that I grew exceedingly disappointed by the glaring lack of answers to my question, "What plain and precious things were lost from the Gospel of the Lamb that required a Restoration?" In fact, I only received two answers, and they were not acceptable to me: 1) That baptism requires a priesthood with the proper "keys" to perform 2) That Jesus was "a" god, not God the Son.

If you're taking the discussions with two male missionaries with no other female LDS member then they've violated one of the most imortant rules in the missionary handbook.

You need to talk to some sister missionaries or make sure the next time you meet with any male missionaries that there is a female LDS member present, otherwise the spirit will not be there to help with your discussions.

Jesus is the Son of God and a god, they got that wrong obviously. You need to ask for some qualified female sister missionaries to continue your discussions.

I was a missionary for nearly two years in Japan, I know what goes on.

 

[Katzpur]

Because I'm not that interested in Catholicism to do that much research. Nothing against Catholics. But I have so much more to do with my life.

I don't want to either, Sola, and I really wasn't suggesting that any of us do so. I just wonder how many other Christians are constantly being told what they believe and why. Somebody reads the Book of Mormon, has a few conversations with the missionaries and all of a sudden is some kind of an authority on Mormonism. Whenever I see these random quotes that we never, ever hear taught in Church, I know somebody has been doing their "research." It just gets old, that's all.

 

[Katzpur]

If you're taking the discussions with two male missionaries with no other female LDS member then they've violated one of the most imortant rules in the missionary handbook, you need to talk to some sister missionaries or make sure the next time you meet with any male missionaries that there is a female LDS member present, otherwise the spirit will not be their to help with your discussions.

Don't jump to conclusions. Francine never said she was alone with two male missionaries. Besides, she's no longer in contact with them.

 

[TrueBlue2]

Catholics never fail to step up when the tables are turned...

"God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage, And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the son of God, and that designation means what it says." (page 742 Mormon Doctrine Bruce McConkie)

Francine, you don't really believe that first statement do you? I met hundreds of Catholics on my mission, and I never found one of them could tell me the slightest thing about what they believed. They just knew they were Catholic. Tradition!

I agree with McConkie's description above. I'm not sure what the debate is...

 

[kadzbiz]

I've decided that I'm out of my league in this thread. I'm not religiously educated enough to argue points of the BoM (or the Bible) and although I have read quite a lot of references to back up LDS statements, I would like to have read more non-mormon supportive facts to be more convincing. Like any argument, groups on either side can present quite convincing "facts" or "evidence" to support their claims.

 

[Scott C.]

In fact, I only received two answers, and they were not acceptable to me: 1) That baptism requires a priesthood with the proper "keys" to perform 2) That Jesus was "a" god, not God the Son.

Hi Francine,

I would like to try an experiement if you would be so kind as to participate with me. I would like to make my best effort at describing the Trinity from a Catholic point of view. I would then ask that you do the same from an LDS point of view. The rules are that neither of us use sarcasm or words that mock the point of view. We must both try to respectfully and accurately describe the doctrine of the other. I would like to do this to see if I have listened carefully to your and other posts on the subject. I'd also like to see if you have learned what LDS believe. Are you game? I will go first:

The Holy Trinity: There is one and only one God. God, being omnipotent, can represent himself in any form he chooses. God chooses from the beginning to represent or manifest himself as three distinct persons, being the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Since God himself is not confined to a physical body, but is Spirit, this Spirit (essence) can simultaneously be present in the person of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. When the Son speaks, the Spirit which occupies the person of the Son is speaking. When the Father speaks, the Spirit which occupies the person of the Father is speaking. In either case, it is the same Spirit (essence) or in other words the same God. So, while it is true that there are two persons, the Father and the Son, we need to realize that there is only one intelligent force, being, Spirit, or essence which is being manifested in different forms. It is impossible to comprehend the majesty and mystery of God. We know the essence of God is everywhere present. We know the essence of God is not limited to a particular physical form. We also know the essence of God is manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three persons, but always one God. This is consistent with the Bible and the tradition of the Holy Church, handed down by the fathers to the present day.

Now it's your turn (let's wait until after you've taken your turn before we comment on each other's doctrinal explanations of the others point of view).

Go for it!

-Scott

 

[Katzpur]

I agree with McConkie's description above. I'm not sure what the debate is...

I believe that the debate concerns the conception of Jesus Christ. I'm not sure what McConkie was trying to say, but many non-Mormons are of the opinion that we believe God to have come down from Heaven one night to have sexual relations with Mary. Is this what you are saying you believe, or are you interpreting McConkie differently than that?

 

[FFH]

Don't jump to conclusions. Francine never said she was alone with two male missionaries. Besides, she's no longer in contact with them.

Ah, I see, so you think she made up the whole "I met with the missionaries" thing.

Am I reading you right ???

It's not uncommon to meet with the missionaries, then read the Book of Mormon in two weeks, it happens. While in Japan one guy read the Book of Mormon on his hour or so train ride to work and back each day in two weeks, he never joined the church though, he worked on Sunday and saw no way out of that.

 

[Katzpur]

Ah, I see, so you think she made up the whole "I met with the missionaries" thing.

Am I reading you right ???

No. I'm quite sure she met with the missionaries on a number of occasions and that she read the Book of Mormon. I'm just saying that she was not meeting with them alone. I'm also saying that she is no longer meeting with them. If I'm wrong, she can correct me.

 

[tomspug]

I think the doctrine of the Trinity is actually kind of obvious. How can you serve God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit without believing in Pantheism?

Answer? (come on, someone else say it)

 

[Bishka]

I think the doctrine of the Trinity is actually kind of obvious. How can you serve God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit without believing in Pantheism?

Answer? (come on, someone else say it)

Are actually interested in learning what our beliefs are or do you obtain more pleasure from telling us we are wrong....

 

[tomspug]

Wow, I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the rolly-eyed smilie all the time. Last time I checked, this topic was under "debates".

Hmm... maybe everyone isn't welcome?

 

[Bishka]

Wow, I'm getting kind of tired of seeing the rolly-eyed smilie all the time. Last time I checked, this topic was under "debates".

Hmm... maybe everyone isn't welcome?

Didn't say you weren't welcome, just wondering if you ever got tired of telling people that they were wrong.

 

[nutshell]

I think the doctrine of the Trinity is actually kind of obvious. How can you serve God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit without believing in Pantheism?

Answer? (come on, someone else say it)

Do you know what you're talking about? Pantheism refers to an abstract god.

 

[s2a]

My answer is mostly drawn from my own personal experience as a lifelong Mormon. I've heard many times that sex is intended to be pleasurable and I've never heard the opposite.

That's not what I said. Priesthood does not equal preaching. In fact, women preach from the pulpit every Sunday.

Perhaps this is a semantical distinction then...in the sense that any layperson may "preach the Gospel" (or testify of their deliverance/salvation, etc.). Some religious sects (Christianity in particular) actually operate under such a "commanded" imperative (see: Matthew 28:16-20, others), but do not "ordain" all preachers as authoritative ministers/priests/"reverends", etc.

Most "organized" sectarian religions connote a special designation of religious authority to individually preside over, lead, or "tend to their community flock"...as it were.

Put another way, all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats. Ergo, all priests are preachers, but not all preachers are priests.

It's a simple question, really. Are women permitted to be ordained as priests within the LDS sects?

In as few words as possible: LDS Martin Harris claimed that Anton told him the characters were genuine, but later recanted when he heard of their source. Anton claimed he never admitted they were genuine characters.

A non-denial denial. How compelling.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

And - I don't care. Questions like this are just the minutia, keeping one from seeing the bigger picture God intends one to see.

Perhaps this partially accounts of a favored axiom..."The Devil is in the details."

Dismissing the "minutiae" may be requisite to faith-based beliefs, but I wouldn't even buy a used car in such a fashion.

I always applaud anyone who can earnestly say "I don't know". I have much less interest in accepting any insistent claims that are answered by, "I don't know, and I don't care if I know or not."

Nothing personal, but I wouldn't buy a used car from you. "Trust me (because I know I'm right and true)", or; "You're missing the bigger picture!"...is a lousy way to sell dishwashers, used cars, religion, or big screen TVs.

There will always be people out there that want to believe (and buy into) any claim that "sounds too good to be true". And, there will always be skeptics; who want to see the fine print, read the warranty, and compare/contrast the claimed features/benefits that may determine the outcome of any impactive decision/choice that directly effects their well-being, goals, and priorities.

A curse is separation from God. Those out to harm God or his church might end up with it.

Interesting. I was not aware that your God (or His church) could ever be harmed, especially by mortal human skin. Perhaps I am "cursed" in this way for being a white, middle-aged male residing within the most prosperous and powerful nation the world has ever known. Maybe that's why LDS, SDAs, and our local Baptists continue to knock upon my door, uninvited...in efforts to "reunite" my accursed and unrepentant soul with their merciful, but curse-throwing, grudge-holding, separation-anxiety riddled deity.

With all due respect, that's a stupid post on your part. I said nothing of "burning in the mind." I said truth confirmed to one's mind. This means knowledge you didn't previously have is now there.

We call that process...learning. Some prefer to think that "knowledge" is a process borne of discovery, inquiry, and curiosity...of the unknown, the ambiguous, or the inexperienced. Missourians are famously known for their innate skepticism as held in their own axiomatic expression..."Don't tell me, show me."

I would agree that existential "truths" are available to anyone that seeks knowledge beyond any defined boundaries or proscribed limits. I only offer that no "truths" of--any kind--are eventually lasting, impacting, or meaningful...if they are not subject to (or claim to rise above) the elemental "minutiae" attendant to any relevant insight, wisdom, newfound discovery, or intellectual exploration of evidential facts.

Also, don't take "burning" so literally. When you have a burning desire for your right hand are you actually burning or experiencing some pain or discomfort?

Is this some veiled masturbatory reference, or what?

Why not? Because it doesn't matter. As for His glory - it is observable first hand. You just need to know where to look.

"Where to look"?

Asked...but your answer only offers..."It doesn't matter".

Evidently, I am cursed with a dearth of requisite faith...as (it would seem) is a purposed retribution upon myself, compliments of your God.

 

[TrueBlue2]

I believe that the debate concerns the conception of Jesus Christ. I'm not sure what McConkie was trying to say, but many non-Mormons are of the opinion that we believe God to have come down from Heaven one night to have sexual relations with Mary. Is this what you are saying you believe, or are you interpreting McConkie differently than that?

Wow! It's amazing what kinds of rabbits people can pull out of hats when they really want to. If McConkie were here he would simply point to the account in Luke and ask people to read it for themselves. Any of us who knew him would know that was NOT what he was trying to say. Again, I support McConkie's statements.

 

[TrueBlue2]

You know what? I agree. I've wasted too much of my time doing this Mormon "outreach". It's not going anywhere. This is the end. I'm going to hang out in other places on RF.

What a member of the LDS church would lose by going to Catholicism:
1) A LIVING Prophet
2) Hundreds of pages of newly revealed scripture that enhances many things taught in the Bible, and clarifies such things as what happens after death, the purpose of life, the characteristics of God, and the Atonement of Christ.
3) Eternal Marriage
4) Temple worship and knowledge
5) The Gift of the Holy Ghost

What a member of the LDS church would gain by going to Catholicism:
1) The Pope (who has never claimed direct revelation from God).
2) The Trinity (the most incomprehensible and confusing description of God ever devised).
3) A philosophy or doctrine that has not remained stable even in my lifetime. Apparently, the Catholic church now rejects the Biblical account of the creation in favor of evolution. What's next?

What a Catholic, or anyone else would gain, by looking to the LDS Church:
- Please see 1 through 5 above.

 

[TrueBlue2]

I think the doctrine of the Trinity is actually kind of obvious. How can you serve God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit without believing in Pantheism?

Answer? (come on, someone else say it)

You keep making claims that the LDS serve three Gods and that is simply NOT the case. LDS people believe that there are three distinct individuals in the Godhead, as is evident in all of scripture, but we believe they all three have different roles within the Godhead. No one prays to Jesus Christ. Because of his victory over death the resurrection is assured for all. Because of the Atonement we once again have an opportunity to return back to God's presence. He is seen as our Advocate with the Father. The Holy Ghost's mission is to testify and to be a witness for truth. Three distinct individuals. One Godhead. All working for the same purpose.

Besides the fact that it's true, that's a whole LOT easier to understand than the Trinity, which is is the most logic-defying and incomprehensible description of God that could ever be invented by man.

 

[Sola'lor]

It's a simple question, really. Are women permitted to be ordained as priests within the LDS sects?

The only worthy males hold the priesthood. Women have access to the priesthood through their husbands, fathers, or other male(hometeachers, relatives, etc.). Maybe another member can explain the relationship better.