'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam

[dybmh]

a false apriori, an incorrect assumption

Speaking of false assumptions

[6.]These “Christians” are called a “class of men” given to a “new … superstition” [religion] [Acts 17:18-34; Romans 1:15 *f].

Your own source called it a superstition. Are you sure that this source actually helps you?

It seems like you are assuming that Christianity was not a cult. And their leader was named Jesus. But Jesus may or may not have even existed. Do any of your sources ( besides the NT ) provide evidence of Jesus the man? Not Jesus the religion... Jesus the man.

Here's an analogy: It's like that you have shown that the "Branch Davidians" exist... but you haven'r brought anything that shows that the leader/prophet/guru was ever real.

 

[Crosstian]

Is the "q" clear?

Surah 6:114 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... [Say (O Muhammad)] “Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (the Qur'an), explained in detail.” … ...”​

Surah 11:1 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... … (This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge), and then explained in detail from One (Allah) Who is All-Wise Well-Acquainted (with all things). ...”​

Surah 12:1 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... ... These are the Verses of the Clear Book (the Qur'an that makes clear the legal and illegal things, laws, a guidance and a blessing. ...”​

Surah 16:89 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... ... And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur'an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allah as Muslims). ...”​

Surah 27:1 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... … These are Verses of the Qur'an, and (it is) a Book (that makes things) clear: ...”​

Surah 41:3 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... A Book, whereof the Verses are explained in detail – a Qur'an in Arabic for people who know. ...”​

Surah 57:9 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... It is He Who sends down manifest Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) to His slave (Muhammad) that He may bring you out from darkness into light. And verily, Allah is to you full of kindness, Most Merciful. ...”​

The Islamic Scholars say, the Qur'an is not so clear:

Qur'an, Al-Hilali-Khan translation, Appendix I, Glossary, Page 877 -

“... Mutashabihat: Qur'anic Verses which are not clear and are difficult to understand. ...”​

Twenty Three Years (Bisl O Seh Sal): A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad by ALI DASHTI (189~1981-2), page 41 PDF [pages 47-48 Book] -

“... {P#47} … The Qur'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. These and other such aberrations in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qur'an's {P#48} eloquence. ...”​

Gerd R. Puin, the worlds foremost authority on Qur'anic paleography, Lester, Toby (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?".Atlantic Monthly. ISSN 1072-7825. Retrieved 5 November 2014. - What Is the Koran? -

“... GERD-R. Puin speaks with disdain about the traditional willingness, on the part of Muslim and Western scholars, to accept the conventional understanding of the Koran. “The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,'” he says. “But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on.” ...”
​

This is why, the "hadith", "tafsir", etc are needful, even necessary, to "q", in order to understand the events and material in "q". The "q" is not sufficient of itself, it is unclear without the background of these other things and people.

Given in Arabic???

The Qur'an, in several places, claims to be given in Arabic alone:

Surah 12:2 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an in order that you may understand. ...”​

Surah 13:37 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And thus have We sent it (the Qur'an) down to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. Were you (O Muhammad) to follow their (Vain) desires after the knowledge which has come to you, then you will not have any Wali (protector) or Waq (defender) against Allah. ...”​

Surah 14:4 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. ...”​

Surah 16:103 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: “It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad).” The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur'an) is a clear Arabic tongue. ...”​

Surah 19:97 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... So We have made this (the Qur'an) easy in your own tongue (O Muhammad), only that you may give glad tidings to the Muttaqun (the pious – See V.2:2), and warn with it in the Ludd[2] (most quarrelsome) people. ...”​

Surah 20:113 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And thus We have sent it down as a Qur'an in Arabic, and have explained therein in detail the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause them to have a lesson from it (or to have the honour for believing and acting on its teachings). ...”​

Surah 26:195 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... In the plain Arabic language. ...”​

Surah 39:28 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... An Arabic Qur'an, without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may avoid all evil which Allah has ordered them to avoid, fear Him and keep their duty to Him. ...”​

Surah 41:3,44 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... [v.3] A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail – a Qur'an in Arabic for people who know. … … [v.44] And if We had sent this as a Qur'an in a foreign language (other than Arabic), they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in Arabic and (the Messenger) an Arab?” Say: “It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Qur'an) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).” ...”​

Surah 42:7 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And thus We have revealed to you (O Muhammad) a Qur'an in Arabic that you may warn the Mother of the Towns (Makkah [Mecca]) and all around it, and warn (them) of the Day of Assembling of which there is no doubt: when a party will be in Paradise (those who believed in Allah and followed what Allah's Messenger brought them) and a party in the blazing Fire (Hell) (those who disbelieved in Allah and followed not what Allah's Messenger brought them).[1] ...”​

Surah 43:3 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... Verily, We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic that you may be able to understand (its meanings and its admonitions). ...”​

Surah 44:58-59 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... [v.58] Certainly, We have made this (Qur'an) easy in your tongue, in order that they may remember. [v.59] Wait then (O Muhammad); verily, they (too) are waiting. ...”​

Surah 46:12 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And before this was the Scripture of Musa (Moses) as a guide and a mercy. And this is a confirming Book (the Qur'an) in the Arabic language, to warn those who do wrong, and as glad tidings to the Muhsinun (good-doers. See the footnote of V.9:120). ...”​

 

[Crosstian]

However, when the details are looked at more closely, of the very words used in the written manuscripts for the Qur'an, we find that there are many words which are not of Arabic origin:

​

Some [as Arthur Jeffrey, Al-Suyuti [107 words listed], Sheikh Ibrahim Al-Ibiary, Usama Dakdok, etc] have stated, and shown that, currently, there are some [est.] 275 non-Arabic words in the manuscripts underlying the Qur'anic texts.

The Islamic Encyclopedia, pages 8222-8223:

“... the annotators found no embarrassment to commit that there are many non-Arabic words intruded into the quran text from languages as: Hebrew, Indian, Persian, Ethiopian, Barbarian, Romanian, Coptic, Greek, and Syrian ...”​

Some selected words, as they give, are given in origin as:

Acadian:

Adam = man or mankind. The correct Arab word: Basharan
Eden = garden. The correct Arab word: Janna.​

Aramaic:

Qiyama = resurrection.​

Assyrian:

Abraham/Ibrahim - a name. The correct Arab equivalent: Abu Raheem.​

Egyptian:

Pharaoh = king or potentate (also a title). Used 84 times in the Quran.​

Ethiopic/Hebrew:

Malak = angel (2/33)​

Greek:

Iblis - corruption of the Greek word diabolos = devil.
Injil - corruption of the Greek word eua(n)ggelion = Gospel.​

Hebrew:

Ahbar = teacher.
Darasa = to find the deepest meanings of the scriptures by exact and thorough studies.
Furquan (also used in Syriac, pwrqn) = to make free, salvation.
Issa or Isa = Esau (brother of the patriarch Jacob). The Quran says it means Jesus. Correct Arab for Jesus: Yeshuwa.
Jahannam (Gehinnom or Gehenna) = originally the valley of Hennom or Hinnom near Jerusalem, intensely used for Pagan (Baal) sacrifices to fire, and it therefore later gave the name to Hell.
Jannatu Adn = paradise, Garden of Eden (today reckoned by science to have been in south Iraq – if it ever existed).
Malakut = reign, the country of Allah/God. NB: No original Arab word ends with -ut.
Masani = repetition.
Maun = to find sanctuary.
Rabbani = teacher.
Sabt = day of rest (Sabbath).
Sakinat = [like Shekinah] the presence of God.
Tabut = ark.
Taghut = mistake.
orah (Taurat) = Jewish holy scriptures, the Torah.
Tufan = deluge​

There also are Hebrew words like; heber, sakinah, maoon, turat, jehannim.

Persian:

Firdaus = the highest or 7. Heaven. Correct Arab: Jannah.
Haroot or Harut = Persian name for angel. Also see “Maroot”.
Hoor = disciple. Correct Arab: Tilmeeth.
Jinn = good or bad demon. Correct Arab: Ruh.
Maroot or Marut = Persian name for angel. May in reality be the Hindu god of the wind.
Sirat = path. Correct Arab: Altareeq.​

Syriac

2/50 furqaan (original Hebrew?) - from pwrqn, Syriac = Salvation.
52/29 kaahin - from khn, Syriac = “priest” - meaning a pagan soothsayer or diviner (69/47).
3/45 mashiih = “the Christ”.
57/12 muhaymin - from mhymn’, Syriac = “the faithful”.
21/87 nuun - (title used for Jonah (Yunus)), from nwn, Syriac =“fish”.
2/85 qiaama - from qymt, Syriac = “resurrection“. (also 2/113, numerous times).
5/85 qissiis - from qshysh, Syriac = “Christian priest”.
4/85 Qur’an - from qyrn, Syriac = “scriptural lesson” or “reading”. (also MANY other places).
3/73 rabbinic - from rbn, Syriac = “perceptor, doctor.” (also 5/48, 5/68).
16/102 ruuh al-qudus, from rwh.qwdsh’, Syriac = “Holy Spirit”.
20/80 tuur - from t.wr’, Syriac = “mountain”.​

There also are Syriac words like; taboot, tag hoot, zakat, malakout.

​

Others have seen/noted the following:

- Tafaq'a is a Romanian word means intended to do, as in The Heights chapter (Surat Al-A'raf) 22

- Al-toar is a Syrian word means the mountain, as in the Cow chapter (Surat Al-
Baqarah) 63

- Al-Raq'im is a Romanian word means the tablet as in The Cave chapter (Surat Al-
Kahf) 9

- Ta-Ha is a Hebrew word as in Ta-Ha chapter

- Senin is a Hebrew word means beautiful

- As-Sijjîl is a Persian word means the book as in the Prophets chapter (Surat Al-
Anbiya') 104

- Al-Istabrek is a Persian word means the thick as in The Smoke chapter (Surat Ad-
Dukhan) 53

- Al-Soundos is an Indian word means the thin curtain as in The Smoke chapter
(Surat Ad-Dukhan) 53

- Sariah is a Greek word means a small river as in Mary chapter (Surat Maryam) 24

- Meshkat is an Ethiopian word means a niche in the wall as in the light
chapter(Surat An-Nur)

- Jouhan'm is a Hebrew word means the hell as in the Spoils of War(Surat Al-
Anfal) 36

- Al-Zakât is a Hebrew word means the tax from money

- Sajjîl is a Persian word means the stony mud

- Ad-Durie is an Ethiopian word means a shinning planet

- Nashet-Al lail is an Ethiopian word means wake up by night as in The One
wrapped in Garments chapter (Surat Al-Muzzammil) 6

- 'keflain is an Ethiopian word means two folds as the iron chapter (Surat Al-Hadid)
28

- Al-Q'swara is an Ethiopian word means the lion as in The One Enveloped
chapter (Surat Al-Muddathir) 51

- Al-Melah Al-Okhra is a Coptic word means the first religion as in Saad chapter
( Surat saad) 7

- 'Wara'hom is a Coptic word means behind them as in The Cave chapter (Surat Al-
Kahf)

- 'Bata'nha is a Coptic word means its external look as in The Most Gracious
chapter(Surat Ar-Rahman) 54

- Uho'd is a Hebrew word means one

- As-Sam'd is a Hebrew word means inclusive of all characters

- Abareeq' is a Persian word means vessels as in The Event chapter (Surat Al-
Waqi'ah) 18

- 'Injeel is a Greek words means annunciation

- Tabout' is a Coptic word means a box

- Saradeq' is a Persian word means a tent

- Surah is a Syrian word means a book chapter

- Al-Ferdous is a Persian word means the garden

- 'At-Taghout is an Ethiopian word means the opposites

- 'Mao'un is a Hebrew word means the pot

Others have noted:

rujz: 'a wrath' is a non-Arabic word of Syriac origin

Osjodo: 'worship' is a non-Arabic word of Aramaic origin​

Those are only a few examples of the non-Arabic foreign words included in the Qur'an, as cited by the various sources.​

 

[Limo]

Why would they need to? All believed Jesus to have actually existed, and that's why they were "Christian apologists", and so even the antagonists believed in His existence (such as; "Celsus , who was a second century Roman author and avid opponent of Christianity. He went to great lengths to disprove the divinity of Jesus yet never denied His actual existence."). The modern (recent), Jesus-mythers, didn't yet exist, nor their arguments. Even those, in such days as Tacitus, acknowledge Jesus existed, even if they didn't accept the resurrection or claims about His being Deity, God (as the majority of Jews didn't). Only 'time' brought the Jesus-mythers, not evidence, or even lack of evidence. Again, why would believers, need to refer to non-believers history? It would be like Moses relying upon Egyptian history when speaking about the flood of Noah.

BTW, your source which you quoted and didn't directly source, isn't Jesus-myther, it's atheistic, which would also deny the existence of "allah". Real nice. Shoot yourself in the foot much?

Did Jesus Exist? | American Atheists

I don't care if the logic is given by atheist, Jew, any non Moslem.
History of your books and how scribes play with is giving ammunition to these logical thinking.
Your way of development your theology especially in the early days also supports these logical thinking.from scientific and historical point of view your Jesus doesn't exist.

 

[Limo]

Is the "q" clear?

Surah 6:114 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... [Say (O Muhammad)] “Shall I seek a judge other than Allah while it is He Who has sent down unto you the Book (the Qur'an), explained in detail.” … ...”​

Surah 11:1 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... … (This is) a Book, the Verses whereof are perfected (in every sphere of knowledge), and then explained in detail from One (Allah) Who is All-Wise Well-Acquainted (with all things). ...”​

Surah 12:1 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... ... These are the Verses of the Clear Book (the Qur'an that makes clear the legal and illegal things, laws, a guidance and a blessing. ...”​

Surah 16:89 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... ... And We have sent down to you the Book (the Qur'an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings for those who have submitted themselves (to Allah as Muslims). ...”​

Surah 27:1 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... … These are Verses of the Qur'an, and (it is) a Book (that makes things) clear: ...”​

Surah 41:3 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... A Book, whereof the Verses are explained in detail – a Qur'an in Arabic for people who know. ...”​

Surah 57:9 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... It is He Who sends down manifest Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) to His slave (Muhammad) that He may bring you out from darkness into light. And verily, Allah is to you full of kindness, Most Merciful. ...”​

The Islamic Scholars say, the Qur'an is not so clear:

Qur'an, Al-Hilali-Khan translation, Appendix I, Glossary, Page 877 -

“... Mutashabihat: Qur'anic Verses which are not clear and are difficult to understand. ...”​

Twenty Three Years (Bisl O Seh Sal): A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammad by ALI DASHTI (189~1981-2), page 41 PDF [pages 47-48 Book] -

“... {P#47} … The Qur'an contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number; illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. These and other such aberrations in the language have given scope to critics who deny the Qur'an's {P#48} eloquence. ...”​

Gerd R. Puin, the worlds foremost authority on Qur'anic paleography, Lester, Toby (January 1999). "What Is the Koran?".Atlantic Monthly. ISSN 1072-7825. Retrieved 5 November 2014. - What Is the Koran? -

“... GERD-R. Puin speaks with disdain about the traditional willingness, on the part of Muslim and Western scholars, to accept the conventional understanding of the Koran. “The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,'” he says. “But if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on.” ...”
​

This is why, the "hadith", "tafsir", etc are needful, even necessary, to "q", in order to understand the events and material in "q". The "q" is not sufficient of itself, it is unclear without the background of these other things and people.

Given in Arabic???

The Qur'an, in several places, claims to be given in Arabic alone:

Surah 12:2 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an in order that you may understand. ...”​

Surah 13:37 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And thus have We sent it (the Qur'an) down to be a judgment of authority in Arabic. Were you (O Muhammad) to follow their (Vain) desires after the knowledge which has come to you, then you will not have any Wali (protector) or Waq (defender) against Allah. ...”​

Surah 14:4 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And We sent not a Messenger except with the language of his people, in order that he might make (the Message) clear for them. Then Allah misleads whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. ...”​

Surah 16:103 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And indeed We know that they (polytheists and pagans) say: “It is only a human being who teaches him (Muhammad).” The tongue of the man they refer to is foreign, while this (the Qur'an) is a clear Arabic tongue. ...”​

Surah 19:97 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... So We have made this (the Qur'an) easy in your own tongue (O Muhammad), only that you may give glad tidings to the Muttaqun (the pious – See V.2:2), and warn with it in the Ludd[2] (most quarrelsome) people. ...”​

Surah 20:113 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And thus We have sent it down as a Qur'an in Arabic, and have explained therein in detail the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause them to have a lesson from it (or to have the honour for believing and acting on its teachings). ...”​

Surah 26:195 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... In the plain Arabic language. ...”​

Surah 39:28 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... An Arabic Qur'an, without any crookedness (therein) in order that they may avoid all evil which Allah has ordered them to avoid, fear Him and keep their duty to Him. ...”​

Surah 41:3,44 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... [v.3] A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail – a Qur'an in Arabic for people who know. … … [v.44] And if We had sent this as a Qur'an in a foreign language (other than Arabic), they would have said: “Why are not its verses explained in detail (in our language)? What! (A Book) not in Arabic and (the Messenger) an Arab?” Say: “It is for those who believe, a guide and a healing. And as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) in their ears, and it (the Qur'an) is blindness for them. They are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).” ...”​

Surah 42:7 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And thus We have revealed to you (O Muhammad) a Qur'an in Arabic that you may warn the Mother of the Towns (Makkah [Mecca]) and all around it, and warn (them) of the Day of Assembling of which there is no doubt: when a party will be in Paradise (those who believed in Allah and followed what Allah's Messenger brought them) and a party in the blazing Fire (Hell) (those who disbelieved in Allah and followed not what Allah's Messenger brought them).[1] ...”​

Surah 43:3 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... Verily, We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic that you may be able to understand (its meanings and its admonitions). ...”​

Surah 44:58-59 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... [v.58] Certainly, We have made this (Qur'an) easy in your tongue, in order that they may remember. [v.59] Wait then (O Muhammad); verily, they (too) are waiting. ...”​

Surah 46:12 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) -

“... And before this was the Scripture of Musa (Moses) as a guide and a mercy. And this is a confirming Book (the Qur'an) in the Arabic language, to warn those who do wrong, and as glad tidings to the Muhsinun (good-doers. See the footnote of V.9:120). ...”​

What is the point ?

 

[Limo]

You didn't ask me to cite Josephus (though I could have, and may yet still). You merely asked me for secular authorities (Josephus was a Jew, not secular) and I provided them, all being unassailable (though Jesus-mythers do laughingly try). As for the texts of Josephus, there is some internal 'debate', mainly upon the first citation, but not so much the second (where "James" is given).

Again, the argument coming from a "Muslim" in attempting to use Jesus-mythers arguments is self-refuting to Islam. It's really strange for them to take up such argument, when it defeats their own religion in so doing. Jesus-mythers, don't care whether speaking about the Jesus of TaNaKh, NT or the "Isa" of Qur'an. It's all the same to them. I would also suspect that the Jesus-myther, may even be Muhammad-mythers also.

I didn't ask for secular resources, I asked for non Christian but you submitted references to Bible books. Are these book secular?
Your way of debate is snacking, blufing, using forged books, tons of copy-pastes.
Are you an electronic robot ?
Proof that you're human.

 

[Limo]

I would like for you to directly cite the evidence of forgery in Tacitus please. I know of no such evidence. Please produce that evidence. In fact, the scholarly world would await such evidence.

The scholarly is full of very experienced professors who have studied these forged testmonys a lot. Simple search in Google you'll find tens of books on top of them professor Price, Carrier, and many others.

 

[dybmh]

{... Unwatching Thread ... }

 

[Limo]

You have a false apriori, an incorrect assumption built in. You self-define "God" in what God would do, rather than what God said God would do.

[1] First Advent was as a lamb:

Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

Isa_42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Isa_53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Joh_1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Joh_1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!​

[2] Second/Third Advent is as a Lion:

Jer_25:30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
​

Therefore, you are committing the same fallacy as the 'Jews' before you in the days of Jesus Christ on earth. Looking for glory and power of His coming the first time, when it is prophesied so of the Second/Third time.

You're not answering our questions or arguments.
As if you're software robot.

I said simply, when God or son of God comes to earth die for all human sens, it's big big thing. It's actually the greatest incident between creation of Adam till end date.
So everyone on Earth should know about this even if they're not in palastine.
In your book, it's written that the deads have come out of graves on crusifixition day. Red Indians, China, India, Egypt, Arabs in desert, Africans, aliens on Mars should have noticed.

But John Remsburg in his book "the Christ" lists 41 writers in first century, only 2-3 writers wrote small ambiguous passages in 3-4 lines ( If it's not forged) about God or son of God ?

I totally understand the unbelievers point of view.
I'm unbeliever of your God, Jesus, books.

 

[Crosstian]

...I'm unbeliever of your God, Jesus, books.

Yes, I know, and it is a position, also contrary to "q" itself, for "q" doesn't actually take the position you do, as shown.

 

[Shad]

You're liar as you're copy-past from liars without give it a minute to check a single Hadeeth in this long copy-pastes.
Following is a link to Albuchary book 73
http://al-islamic.net/hadith/bukhari/78#73
The first 2 Hadeethes don't exist.

You read the wrong citation. Who copy/pasted what now without reading?

Your source

"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah said,“The offspring of Adam abuse the Dahr (Time), and I am the Dahr; in My Hands are the night and the day.” !
Translated by: Muhammad Muhsin Khan
English (translation) ref: Vol.:8, Book:73 Number:200"


Crosstian's source

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 200: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Allah said, "The offspring of Adam abuse the Dahr (Time), and I am the Dahr;in My Hands are the night and the day." !

Your source

Narrated Al-Walid bin‘Aizar: I heard Abi `Amr ‘Ash-Shaibani saying, “The owner of this house.” he pointed to `Abdullah’s house, “said, ‘I asked the Prophet ‘Which deed is loved most by Allah?” He replied, ‘To offer prayers at their early (very first) stated times.’ ” `Abdullah asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” The Prophet said, “To be good and dutiful to one’s parents,” `Abdullah asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” The Prophet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah’s Cause.” `Abdullah added,“The Prophet narrated to me these three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more.”
Translated by: Muhammad Muhsin Khan
English (translation) ref: Vol.:8, Book:73 Number:1

Crosstian's source

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 1: Narrated Al-Walid bin 'Aizar: I heard Abi Amr 'Ash-Shaibani saying, "The owner of this house." he pointed to 'Abdullah's house,"said, 'I asked the Prophet 'Which deed is loved most by Allah?" He replied, 'To offer prayers at theirearly (very first) stated times.' " 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said,"To be good and dutiful to one's parents," 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" TheProphet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause." 'Abdullah added, "The Prophet narrated to methese three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more."

 

[Limo]

You read the wrong citation. Who copy/pasted what now without reading?

Your source

"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Allah said,“The offspring of Adam abuse the Dahr (Time), and I am the Dahr; in My Hands are the night and the day.” !
Translated by: Muhammad Muhsin Khan
English (translation) ref: Vol.:8, Book:73 Number:200"


Crosstian's source

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 200: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Allah said, "The offspring of Adam abuse the Dahr (Time), and I am the Dahr;in My Hands are the night and the day." !

Your source

Narrated Al-Walid bin‘Aizar: I heard Abi `Amr ‘Ash-Shaibani saying, “The owner of this house.” he pointed to `Abdullah’s house, “said, ‘I asked the Prophet ‘Which deed is loved most by Allah?” He replied, ‘To offer prayers at their early (very first) stated times.’ ” `Abdullah asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” The Prophet said, “To be good and dutiful to one’s parents,” `Abdullah asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” The Prophet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah’s Cause.” `Abdullah added,“The Prophet narrated to me these three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more.”
Translated by: Muhammad Muhsin Khan
English (translation) ref: Vol.:8, Book:73 Number:1

Crosstian's source

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 1: Narrated Al-Walid bin 'Aizar: I heard Abi Amr 'Ash-Shaibani saying, "The owner of this house." he pointed to 'Abdullah's house,"said, 'I asked the Prophet 'Which deed is loved most by Allah?" He replied, 'To offer prayers at theirearly (very first) stated times.' " 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" The Prophet said,"To be good and dutiful to one's parents," 'Abdullah asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" TheProphet said, To participate in Jihad for Allah's Cause." 'Abdullah added, "The Prophet narrated to methese three things, and if I had asked more, he would have told me more."

My friend don't jump into the discussion without reading all details.

Crosstain submitted Hadeethes from forged PDF related to "Malik El molk"
These Hadeeths are not in the original book of Albukhary.
Do a search in the correct Albuckary you'll never find anything about "king of Kings"

That is the case.

 

[Crosstian]

...That is the case.

In succinct words, can you explain how one gets to the Muslim Jannah? and so also how one gets to the Muslim Jahannam (and where one goes in its 7 levels, how one gets to, or goes to, such and such level), and where, if any place, is Barzakh, and how one gets there?

 

[Limo]

In succinct words, can you explain how one gets to the Muslim Jannah? and so also how one gets to the Muslim Jahannam (and where one goes in its 7 levels, how one gets to, or goes to, such and such level), and where, if any place, is Barzakh, and how one gets there?

You're Escape from corner, where you've nothing to say by opening other subjects.
Just concentrate on open subjects and answer questions:

1. Why do you use a forged copy of Sahih Albuckary ?
2. Why your greatest incident happened in history God or sonnof God is just on 2-3 sources out of 40 writers in 1st century ?
3. Why all humans didn't notice coming, crocifixtion, resurrection of god ?
4. Why noone on Earth have noticed the rise of deads (zombies) on crocifixtion day ?
5. How to explain the contradiction between Bible's in crucification and restriction story ?
6. Why old Christians have to add 18 statements to Mark to finish the story?
7. Why Mark, Luke, and Mathew are called synoptics nut John stands alone ?
8. Why you consider new testimony as secular writings ?
9. Why do you copy-pastes long texts and not using your own words?
10. Your Jesus doesn't exist

 

[Shad]

My friend don't jump into the discussion without reading all details.

Crosstain submitted Hadeethes from forged PDF related to "Malik El molk"
These Hadeeths are not in the original book of Albukhary.
Do a search in the correct Albuckary you'll never find anything about "king of Kings"

That is the case.

Wrong. Read what you link next time and take your own advice. Hilarious.

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 224 -

“... Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, “The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings).”

Sufyan said, “Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by 'The king of kings' is 'Shahan Shah.,” ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 225 -

“... Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight.” Sufyan said more than once, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight is (that of) a man calling himself king of kings.” Sufyan said, “Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by 'The king of kings' is 'Shahan Shah.,” ...”​

. ...”

Your source. So the source you used incorrectly is a forgery too right?



Sahih Bukhari - Book: 78 Hadith: 6276
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said,“The most awful name in Allah’s sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings).
Translated by: Muhammad Muhsin Khan
English (translation) ref: Vol.:8, Book:73 Number:224


Sahih Bukhari - Book: 78 Hadith: 6277
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah’s sight.” Sufyan said more than once, “The most awful (meanest) name in Allah’s sight is (that of) a man calling himself king of kings.” Sufyan said, “Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by ‘The king of kings’ is‘Shahan Shah.,”
Translated by: Muhammad Muhsin Khan
English (translation) ref: Vol.:8, Book:73 Number:225

 

[Crosstian]

...Why old Christians have to add 18 statements to Mark to finish the story?

All your questions, aren't really questions.

They (Christians) didn't "add", nor "take away", as it is forbidden. They faithfully recorded by inspiration of God.

First of all, Psalms 12:6-7, etc already showed that JEHOVAH Elohiym preserves JEHOVAH Elohiym's words.

Manuscripts (MSS, abbreviated) evidence for the reading (or Gospel ending) of Mark 16:9-20 KJB-

3 of the so-called Great Uncials : A (Alexandrinus), C (Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus), D (Codex Bezae Cantabrigensis), and many other Uncials: E, F, G, (H), K, (L), M, S, U, V, (W), X, Y.

It is in - Gamma, Delta, Theta, Pi, Sigma, (Psi), Omega, (099), (0112).

In thee vast # (1,000's of MSS) of "Cursives", being in "MAJORITY", fam 1,13.

Old Latin - aur, c, d-suppl, ff2, g1,2, l, n, o, p, r2, & Vulgate (1,000's of MSS)

SYRIAC - peshi.tta, curetonian, harclean, palestinian.

COPTIC - sahidic, bohairic, fayyumic.

Gothic, Armenian, Ethiopic.

It is extant (available) in 047, 055, 0211, 0233?, 0257.​

Early bishops (so-called ECF), who claimed direct succession of the Apostles never left it out-

TATIAN, Diatessaron, (I 10:125,126,128,129), in entirety.

IRENAEUS, Against Heresies (I 1:426), vs. 16:18

TERTULLIAN, Resurrection of Flesh (I 3:584), vs. 16:19; Against Praxeas (I 3:627), vs. 16:19

CYPRIAN, 7th Council (I 5:569), refers to vs. 16:17,18; Gospel of Nicodemus (I 8:422,432,436,445), vs. 16:15-19

APHRAHAT, Demonstrations (III 13:351), vs. 16:16-19

APOSTOLIC CONST. (I 7:457,479), vs 16:16-19

AMBROSE, The Holy Spirit (III 10:133,134), vs. 16:15-18; Const. of Faith (III 10:216), vs. 16:15; Repentance (III 10:335), vs. 16:17,18.

Nothing in indexes of the ANPF of pre-400 AD father quoting up to vs. 8 and stopping.​

Main line Bibles always had it: AV (KJB), HF & CR*; Tyndale, Great, Geneva, Bishops, Stephanus, Th. Beza, Elzivir bro., E, 238, 239, 440, 475-2nd. cor., 477, 486, 488, 489, 1071, & etc.

Basically in 10,000's of MSS, only 'missing' in: Aleph (Sinaiticus) [which omits quite a bit], B (Vaticanus), the 2 most 'emended' (corrupted) Codices and in 'pc' (UBS cites 1 lone cursive*), (k), sin, sa-ms, Arm-mss.

As for Vaticanus (codex B), there is the exact 'space' for it in the MSS: - Should the Longer Ending of Mark (Mark 16:9-20) be in the Bible? - King James Version Today

Between Luke and John, there is no such 'space':

For more detail, please see brother Will Kinney's page - https://brandplucked.webs.com/mark16920.htm

 

[Crosstian]

...Why do you use a forged copy of Sahih Albuckary ? ...

First of all, the spelling in English, is Sahih al-Bukhari. I have seen you incorrectly spell it, several times now (Albuckary [1], Albukhary [2]).

The source I cited is not 'forged'. It's in English, with Arabic on right.

If you don't like the source I used, which many Muslims and Islamicists use (never once calling it a 'forgery'), consider this one:

"...78
Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab)

كتاب الأدب

(114)
Chapter: The name which is most disliked by Allah.

(114)
باب أَبْغَضِ الأَسْمَاءِ إِلَى اللَّهِ

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings).

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الْيَمَانِ، أَخْبَرَنَا شُعَيْبٌ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو الزِّنَادِ، عَنِ الأَعْرَجِ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ أَخْنَى الأَسْمَاءِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ رَجُلٌ تَسَمَّى مَلِكَ الأَمْلاَكِ ‏"‏‏.‏

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 6205
In-book reference : Book 78, Hadith 229
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 8, Book 73, Hadith 224
(deprecated numbering scheme) ..." - Hadith - Book of Good Manners and Form (Al-Adab) - Sahih al-Bukhari - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)
​

Here is another site:

"... Volume 8, Book 73, Number 224 :

Narrated by Abu Huraira

Allah's Apostle said, "The most awful name in Allah's sight on the Day of Resurrection, will be (that of) a man calling himself Malik Al-Amlak (the king of kings)."​

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 225 :

Narrated by Abu Huraira

The Prophet said, "The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight." Sufyan said more than once, "The most awful (meanest) name in Allah's sight is (that of) a man calling himself king of kings." Sufyan said, "Somebody else (i.e. other than Abu Az-Zinad, a sub-narrator) says: What is meant by 'The king of kings' is 'Shahan Shah."..." - Sahih Bukhari : Book of "Good Manners"​

 

[Crosstian]

Why your greatest incident happened in history God or son of God is just on 2-3 sources out of 40 writers in 1st century

Thanks for that admission that it is in those sources.

Show me a single historical source from 570-642 AD that mentions Muhammad by name, or Muslims by name or Meccah by name. Just one source.

 

[Crosstian]

...How to explain the contradiction between Bible's in crucification and restriction story ?

What? I assume you mean "crucifixion" and "resurrection"? Other than that, I do not know what you refer to. You will have to explain further, if you want an answer to your "question". Please refer to the KJB when you give a reference, thank you.

 

[Crosstian]

...Why all humans didn't notice coming ...

In a court of "Law" - Asked and answered - 'Apologiz-ing' (1 Pet. 3:15) to Muslims and Islam