Apostates of Islam

[ProudMuslim]

Does the moderate one still punish adulterers? because in the Ahadith and Quran they are.

Why do you keep asking questions when few moments ago you were giving lectures on Islam (truth teller vs Cherry Picker)?? Isn't that contradicting? lol.

 

[.lava]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The verses of the Quran are "mubayyinat", i.e which make things plain, clear, distinct and perspicuous [/FONT]

Huston,we have a problem,it is clear from this thread that things are far from plain ,clear,distinct and perspicuous,far from it,from my perspective it seems that Muslims cannot see further than their noses and suffer from being anally retentive.
Trying to emulate Muhammed who lived 1400 years ago which at first seems not too strange as Christians follow Jesus and try emulate his deeds
but the difference here is Jesus never put anyone to death for anything,whereas Muhammed killed Apostates,adulterers and had a number of Jews executed.
This is what a non believer such as myself sees,far from a beautiful religion of peace which is clear distint etc we see it's ugly side,whether punishments are Earthly or in the afterlife the punishments are plentiful in what is IMHO a totalitarian ideaology gone mad.

Mohammad (PBUH) did not put anyone to death. those Jews who broke their promise were judged by their own terms and their own law executed them. they were offered to be judged by Islam or their own belief. they chsed their own. tell Huston not to confuse his nose with ours.

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[England my lionheart]

Why do you keep asking questions when few moments ago you were giving lectures on Islam (truth teller vs Cherry Picker)?? Isn't that contradicting? lol.

I was being a little sarcastic,i already know the answer i am not trying to give lectures and perhaps i could be accused of Cherry picking,but i am picking the rotten fruit that pertain to Human rights issues ie article 18 of the universal declaration of Human rights which Islamic states are the biggest perpetrators of these hideous crimes.

 

[England my lionheart]

Mohammad (PBUH) did not put anyone to death. those Jews who broke their promise were judged by their own terms and their own law executed them. they were offered to be judged by Islam or their own belief. they chsed their own. tell Huston not to confuse his nose with ours.

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LOL good one,however he did have people put to death and even tortured,Apostates ,adulterers and anyone who criticised him or Islam.

 

[Fatihah]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The verses of the Quran are "mubayyinat", i.e which make things plain, clear, distinct and perspicuous [/FONT]

Huston,we have a problem,it is clear from this thread that things are far from plain ,clear,distinct and perspicuous,far from it,from my perspective it seems that Muslims cannot see further than their noses and suffer from being anally retentive.
Trying to emulate Muhammed who lived 1400 years ago which at first seems not too strange as Christians follow Jesus and try emulate his deeds
but the difference here is Jesus never put anyone to death for anything,whereas Muhammed killed Apostates,adulterers and had a number of Jews executed.
This is what a non believer such as myself sees,far from a beautiful religion of peace which is clear distint etc we see it's ugly side,whether punishments are Earthly or in the afterlife the punishments are plentiful in what is IMHO a totalitarian ideaology gone mad.

Response: If the act of self-defense is an act of going mad or ugliness or an act of not wanting peace, then the religion or beliefs you wish to follow is much more destructive and immoral than islam. Muhammad (pbuh) acted in self-defense. If self-defense is wrong, than I for one do not want to be right.

 

[.lava]

LOL good one,however he did have people put to death and even tortured,Apostates ,adulterers and anyone who criticised him or Islam.

that's not the Last Prophet SAW you're talking about.

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[England my lionheart]

It's ugly,putting a Man to death for changing his religion(prison for Women) so is killing an adulterer,Homosexual, it's all ugly

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who would kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf as he has harmed Allah and His Apostle ?" Muhammad bin Maslama (got up and) said, "I will kill him." So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka'b and said, "I want a loan of one or two Wasqs of food grains." Ka'b said, "Mortgage your women to me." Muhammad bin Maslama said, "How can we mortgage our women, and you are the most handsome among the Arabs?" He said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." Muhammad said, "How can we mortgage our sons, as the people will abuse them for being mortgaged for one or two Wasqs of food grains? It is shameful for us. But we will mortgage our arms to you." So, Muhammad bin Maslama promised him that he would come to him next time. They (Muhammad bin Maslama and his companions came to him as promised and murdered him. Then they went to the Prophet and told him about it.

or is this one a fake aswell as all the other unsavoury ones.

I took the link off as it was in Arabic

 

[.lava]

Response: If the act of self-defense is an act of going mad or ugliness or an act of not wanting peace, then the religion or beliefs you wish to follow is much more destructive and immoral than islam. Muhammad (pbuh) acted in self-defense. If self-defense is wrong, than I for one do not want to be right.

:clapagreed completely. matter of fact, i could not respect a man who does nothing when his neighbour, his people were being raped and killed.

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[.lava]

It's ugly,putting a Man to death for changing his religion(prison for Women) so is killing an adulterer,Homosexual, it's all ugly
Hadith number in Sahih Muslim [Arabic only]: 3359
or is this one a fake aswell as all the other unsavoury ones.

if i did not know any better, i would have said you're not England, you are Alla Prima.

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[England my lionheart]

if i did not know any better, i would have said you're not England, you are Alla Prima.

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I most certainly am not Alla Prima,i bring these Ahadith up Lava to show just what non believers see,it's not so much as what Muhammed did or did'nt do,it's what Muslims are doing now because of these Ahadith,i really don't care what religion anybody follows unless there is a conflict in Human rights.

 

[.lava]

I most certainly am not Alla Prima,i bring these Ahadith up Lava to show just what non believers see,it's not so much as what Muhammed did or did'nt do,it's what Muslims are doing now because of these Ahadith,i really don't care what religion anybody follows unless there is a conflict in Human rights.

hmm...OK...good to know you are yourself . also, i respect human rights. it is my right to chose which belief or religion i want and i do accept to be punished for adultery in case i commit it in the conditions Qur'an says and in the way Qur'an commands. now you tell me, can you take my right away?


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[England my lionheart]

hmm...OK...good to know you are yourself . also, i respect human rights. it is my right to chose which belief or religion i want and i do accept to be punished for adultery in case i commit it in the conditions Qur'an says and in the way Qur'an commands. now you tell me, can you take my right away?



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Of course not,in fact i would defend your right to choose your religion,however we both know that Islamic states do not just humiliate adulterers do they and i'm quite sure the people on the recieving end of the stones would agree with me that it is a crime against Humanity.

 

[Fatihah]

It's ugly,putting a Man to death for changing his religion(prison for Women) so is killing an adulterer,Homosexual, it's all ugly

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who would kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf as he has harmed Allah and His Apostle ?" Muhammad bin Maslama (got up and) said, "I will kill him." So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka'b and said, "I want a loan of one or two Wasqs of food grains." Ka'b said, "Mortgage your women to me." Muhammad bin Maslama said, "How can we mortgage our women, and you are the most handsome among the Arabs?" He said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." Muhammad said, "How can we mortgage our sons, as the people will abuse them for being mortgaged for one or two Wasqs of food grains? It is shameful for us. But we will mortgage our arms to you." So, Muhammad bin Maslama promised him that he would come to him next time. They (Muhammad bin Maslama and his companions came to him as promised and murdered him. Then they went to the Prophet and told him about it.

or is this one a fake aswell as all the other unsavoury ones.

I took the link off as it was in Arabic

Response: Very odd that you would not want to provide a link. But what is even more odd is that this is the same hadith in which you fabricated in post 245 of page 25 in the thread "Islam in the tanakh and the bible" thread in which you said:

Bukhari – "Allah's messenger said, 'Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and his apostle.' Maslama got up saying "Would you like me to kill him?" The prophet proclaimed, 'Yes'. Maslama said, "Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him." Muhammed said, "You may do so."

Now after being caught out for fabricating the hadith by saying originally that Allah's Apostle requested the killing of someone simply because he said injurious things, you now produce a similar hadith and want to know it's authenticity? Why must you lie to begin with?

 

[kai]

Agreed.


Frankly, kai, I don't need the Westerner to define for me what is extreme. Even if Westerners thought that certain Islamic principles and rulings are extreme, it won't mean anything to me, I am saying this just to be honest with you.
I personally disagree with killing of the (peaceful) apostates and most importantly without denying any authentic hadith but through reading the hadith in its right context.

As for dealing with him (i.e the apostate), there are different opinions about dealing with the apostate. Most scholars are of the opinion that he should be informed and asked to recant. If after clarification he insists on his position then he should be executed. Other scholars are of the opinion that since the Qur’an affirms freedom of religions, apostasy is left to the individual as real accountability will be in the Day of Judgment. Still other scholars, while considering apostasy as an infraction and a potential threat to the stability and integrity of an Islamic state, they do not find decisive and definitive evidence that the apostate should be executed. At most he may be subject to a discretionary punishment depending on the harm to society caused by his apostasy.

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes a worldly punishment for apostasy. The Qur’an states the punishment only in the Hereafter. However, numerous verses in the Qur’an affirm freedom of religion and reject compulsion or coercion in religion; for example, see Chapter 2, verse 256.

In hadith, however, there are some texts signifying capital punishment for apostasy. However, scholars differed about the interpretation of these texts. Some made a distinction between apostasy which coupled with fighting against Muslims, committing a capital crime or committing an act of “high treason” against the state. According to this interpretation, capital punishment is because of these crimes, not mere leaving Islam. Other scholars made no such distinction. However, the first interpretation is supported by a number of other sound hadiths which show that when a man in Madinah apostated from Islam, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) neither ordered his execution nor punished him in any other way, and when the man finally left Madinah, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) never sent anyone to arrest him or punish him because of his apostasy.

If indeed the capital punishment for apostasy is a hadd (specified mandatory punishment) one would expect that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) would be the first one to implement the law of Allah.

By Dr. Jamal Badawi: IslamonLine.net

And a special folder for this issue on IslamOnline (that reflects the different opinions on this): Apostasy and the Freedom of Religion - IslamOnline.net - Living Sharia'h

you missunderstand me , its up to you what you find extreme,

 

[alwayswondering]

The Coptic guy (who is not your friend ) can say what he wants. I myself see that the Coptic Christians enjoy freedom to a great extent. I don't deny that problems (including sectarian violence) happen between Muslims and Christians here from time to time, but it should be looked as sporadic cases.

Key words: "to a great extent".

From time to time? I believe that's an understatement. If it weren't, there wouldn't be a need for police posted in front of or across the street from every church I've ever seen in Egypt, and I've seen a lot of them. In fact, the Coptic church in my neighborhood not only has a police officer posted across from the entry gates 24/7, there's additional officers station around it during any Coptic holiday/celebration/feast.

Nonetheless, non-Muslims in Egypt do not enjoy the same freedoms and protections as Muslims do. Egypt is, I believe, on the verge of another Islamic revolution because, well, the last one didn't serve its purpose and all there really is to show for it is a lot of superficial Islam. It's an interesting process to observe.

 

[England my lionheart]

Response: Very odd that you would not want to provide a link. But what is even more odd is that this is the same hadith in which you fabricated in post 245 of page 25 in the thread "Islam in the tanakh and the bible" thread in which you said:


Now after being caught out for fabricating the hadith by saying originally that Allah's Apostle requested the killing of someone simply because he said injurious things, you now produce a similar hadith and want to know it's authenticity? Why must you lie to begin with?

As i posted,i removed the link because it is in Arabic but i will put it back if you wish,and it's not a simmilar Ahadith,it is the same one and can be found in Bukhari and Muslim and as for fabricating this Ahadith what for,although the translation differs slightly the meaning is exactly the same,Muhammed was asked if he wanted someone killed to which he replied in the affirmative and then the murder was carried out.
Whats the problem here,Saudi have no problem with this Ahadith why have you,IMO the best place for these hadith is in the bin.

 

[England my lionheart]

Key words: "to a great extent".

From time to time? I believe that's an understatement. If it weren't, there wouldn't be a need for police posted in front of or across the street from every church I've ever seen in Egypt, and I've seen a lot of them. In fact, the Coptic church in my neighborhood not only has a police officer posted across from the entry gates 24/7, there's additional officers station around it during any Coptic holiday/celebration/feast.

Nonetheless, non-Muslims in Egypt do not enjoy the same freedoms and protections as Muslims do. Egypt is, I believe, on the verge of another Islamic revolution because, well, the last one didn't serve its purpose and all there really is to show for it is a lot of superficial Islam. It's an interesting process to observe.

This is what Kareem Soliman posted in his Blog and why he is in prison,he also believes Egypt is on the brink of a revolution and called Al Azhar University a school for terrorism.

 

[.lava]

Of course not,in fact i would defend your right to choose your religion,however we both know that Islamic states do not just humiliate adulterers do they and i'm quite sure the people on the recieving end of the stones would agree with me that it is a crime against Humanity.

we both know stoning is not what i am talking about. so, please, do not make me say it over and over again.

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[England my lionheart]

we both know stoning is not what i am talking about. so, please, do not make me say it over and over again.

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Lava,as far as i'm aware there is no stoning mentioned in the Quran,however the Ahadith does and thats the problem

 

[ProudMuslim]

It's ugly,putting a Man to death for changing his religion(prison for Women) so is killing an adulterer,Homosexual, it's all ugly

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who would kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf as he has harmed Allah and His Apostle ?" Muhammad bin Maslama (got up and) said, "I will kill him." So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to Ka'b and said, "I want a loan of one or two Wasqs of food grains." Ka'b said, "Mortgage your women to me." Muhammad bin Maslama said, "How can we mortgage our women, and you are the most handsome among the Arabs?" He said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." Muhammad said, "How can we mortgage our sons, as the people will abuse them for being mortgaged for one or two Wasqs of food grains? It is shameful for us. But we will mortgage our arms to you." So, Muhammad bin Maslama promised him that he would come to him next time. They (Muhammad bin Maslama and his companions came to him as promised and murdered him. Then they went to the Prophet and told him about it.

or is this one a fake aswell as all the other unsavoury ones.

I took the link off as it was in Arabic

I am sure all the "unsavoury" ones serve the enemies of Islam with their propaganda more than anyone else. It is clear from posts here that such attraibuted ahadiths is more defended by the non-Muslims than the Muslims themselves and for obvious reasons.

Having said regarding this particular incident, it does not mention anything about Ka'ab. Why not try to research more regarding the deeds of that man, after all death penalty is acceptable in Islam within conditions in which treason is a prime example. So why not read more about this man instead of just posting the result of his doings.