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Archeaological evidence for the Bible

Hope

Princesinha
Good for you, Hope, I commend you. If you look at the post you are quoting very carefully, you will see that I am trying to save the Christian religion. Do you see what I'm getting at? If Christianity = flood, you have a problem, because the flood didn't happen. So that would mean no Christianity. So by proposing to you that Christianity doesn't have to include such a primitive, superstitious and false belief, it becomes possible to save it.

I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact remains that the truth of the Bible and the Christian faith are inseparable. If I believe the Bible is a myth, then why shouldn't the God I believe in be totally mythical as well? It is not possible to separate the two. Especially when Jesus Himself believed in the truth of the Flood and other events in the Old Testament.....my faith in Him is compromised if He is a deceiver or a liar.

Well, that depends. If you take your Bible as telling you (just for an example) that flood happened, again you have a problem. Science contradicts it. So then you'd have to choose: your Bible vs. Science. If you choose your Bible, please give up your computer. But if you can read your Bible so as not to require you to believe that, or that the earth is 10,000 years old, then you don't have to make such a choice.

Science contradicts? How could it truly contradict when....hold on....let's read what you say next:

Science can't prove anything. Ever. Science is not about proof. Saying goes: proof is for whiskey. Nothing in science is 100% certain--that's not how science works. Science is about evidence. There's always some degree of uncertainty, or looking at it differently, a degree of certainty.

How can science truly contradict the Flood story, etc., when it can't truly prove anything?? :confused: You're contradicting yourself. You said this earlier: "What I'm getting at is that Noah's flood, YEC, etc. are easily disprovable, and have been disproven by science."

Hold on. How can you say one minute that science disproves, then turn around and say it can't prove anything? I'm really confused. You can't have it both ways. Either it conclusively proves and disproves or it doesn't. Science as I know it, and as you have admitted, is subject to change. Therefore, when people such as yourself claim science has disproven the Flood and other Biblical events, I don't take such assertions too seriously.

At the end of the day, most science is dependent upon interpretation of data. The data itself doesn't change, but how the scientists interpret it does. That's why science is constantly changing. So, as I've said, some people's blind faith in science is just as absurd as some people's blind faith in religion.

Good for you. I have looked at the other box quite hard, and as a result, do not believe that faith is a good way to decide things. However, that is a separate discussion entirely, because what we do know is that science is the best way to learn about the natural world--do you agree or disagree?

Of course science is the best way to learn about the natural world. I never said it wasn't. But it's not 100% free of error.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact remains that the truth of the Bible and the Christian faith are inseparable. If I believe the Bible is a myth, then why shouldn't the God I believe in be totally mythical as well? It is not possible to separate the two. Especially when Jesus Himself believed in the truth of the Flood and other events in the Old Testament.....my faith in Him is compromised if He is a deceiver or a liar.
There are more possibilities than "this is literally true" and "this is totally made-up".

Consider Aesop's fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper. There was no literal ant or grasshopper, yet the fable is still true. In fact, if a person were to go looking for "the" historic ant and grasshopper, he or she would be completely missing the point.

How can science truly contradict the Flood story, etc., when it can't truly prove anything?? :confused: You're contradicting yourself. You said this earlier: "What I'm getting at is that Noah's flood, YEC, etc. are easily disprovable, and have been disproven by science."

Like anything, neither science nor religion are completely provable, because nothing is completely provable. The fact that we are flawed creatures means that any perception or observation outside ourselves that we experience cannot be proven with certainty to be true.

The classic example is the "brain in a vat" problem. If you were not who you think you are, but were instead a brain in a vat in a lab with perceptions fed by electrodes, how could you tell? If you were "in the Matrix", so to speak, would you know it? If not, then nothing can be held to be 100% provable.
 

Hope

Princesinha
Consider Aesop's fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper. There was no literal ant or grasshopper, yet the fable is still true. In fact, if a person were to go looking for "the" historic ant and grasshopper, he or she would be completely missing the point.

Another poor analogy of a fable or fairy tale being the same as the Bible. We all know fables are fables, and fairy tales are fairy tales, so why would we go looking for their invented characters?

The Bible, on the other hand, makes no such pretenses of being fiction.

Like anything, neither science nor religion are completely provable, because nothing is completely provable. The fact that we are flawed creatures means that any perception or observation outside ourselves that we experience cannot be proven with certainty to be true.

The classic example is the "brain in a vat" problem. If you were not who you think you are, but were instead a brain in a vat in a lab with perceptions fed by electrodes, how could you tell? If you were "in the Matrix", so to speak, would you know it? If not, then nothing can be held to be 100% provable.

I never said religion was provable. All I was pointing out was the inherent contradiction involved in the claim that science has proven or disproven things when in reality it can't prove or disprove much at all. :D
 

Hope

Princesinha
What about "polystrate" fossils, such as trees, that go through several layers of strata? How do anti-Flood geologists explain them?

Or fossils of specimens "frozen" in some particular action?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact remains that the truth of the Bible and the Christian faith are inseparable. If I believe the Bible is a myth, then why shouldn't the God I believe in be totally mythical as well? It is not possible to separate the two. Especially when Jesus Himself believed in the truth of the Flood and other events in the Old Testament.....my faith in Him is compromised if He is a deceiver or a liar.
This poses a terrible theological dilemma for you, and I am sensitive to it. This is why YEC leads to atheism, and is so harmful to Christianity. Many YEC fundamentalist Christians, when they realize that what they were told, or what their church holds about these actual historical events, is false, then question their entire religious faith. Since I am an atheist, and have never been Christian, I am not the best person to comment on this problem. It might be helpful if some Christians who did accept ToE (the Theory of Evolution) joined the conversation.

Science contradicts? How could it truly contradict when....hold on....let's read what you say next:

How can science truly contradict the Flood story, etc., when it can't truly prove anything?? :confused: You're contradicting yourself. You said this earlier: "What I'm getting at is that Noah's flood, YEC, etc. are easily disprovable, and have been disproven by science."
Science in general cannot prove, but can disprove. This is called falsifiability. Any theory should be theoretically possible to disprove, and the lack of any evidence that does so tends to support the theory. The hypothesis that the entire world was underwater, for example, can be falsified. The way science works is that the hypothesis generates predictions, which we can all agree on. For example, if life is only 10,000 years old, then we should never find any fossils oler than 10,000 years. Disproven.

My point is that no scientific knowledge is ever 100% certain. For example, we're pretty darn sure that the earth is (more or less) shaped like a ball. But our degree of certainly of this is like 99.99%. There are still a few (odd) people who do not believe this. And here's the problem for a creationist: ToE is in this same category. There is so much evidence, from so many different fields, of such high quality, that ToE is in the same category as The Round Earth Theory. No reputable biologists questions it any more--it was soundly established around 100 years ago. So, to reject it, you have to reject the scientific method itself.

Hold on. How can you say one minute that science disproves, then turn around and say it can't prove anything? I'm really confused. You can't have it both ways. Either it conclusively proves and disproves or it doesn't. Science as I know it, and as you have admitted, is subject to change. Therefore, when people such as yourself claim science has disproven the Flood and other Biblical events, I don't take such assertions too seriously.
What do you take seriously? Electricity? Subject to change. Germ theory? Same. Round earth? Earth revolves around sun? All as likely to change as ToE, or as that there was never a flood. We are as likely, at this point, to conclude that flood happened as that there is no gravity. Every scientist from every field find the same thing. Geologists, all acting on their own, without consulting with the paleontologists, and without a secret atheist agenda, find no flood. Archeologists--same thing. And so forth. Paleontologists. They all looked, and found no evidence for that flood. That's why no science department in any university in the world (except maybe Bob Jones or the ilk) teaches that it happened. It didn't.

At the end of the day, most science is dependent upon interpretation of data. The data itself doesn't change, but how the scientists interpret it does. That's why science is constantly changing. So, as I've said, some people's blind faith in science is just as absurd as some people's blind faith in religion.
This is what creationists would like you to believe, but in fact interpretation plays no role in scientific knowledge. Reality is not whatever we make it. That's what peer review and replication are about. Interpretation can get you hypothesis, but to establish a theory you need facts, specifically, predictions confirmed.

The kind of faith we have in science, which you say you share, is not blind. It is confidence based on hundreds of years of positive experience. I think you're ambivalent about it. You know it works, but it doesn't support the conclusions you believe. I say that, hard as it is, the only honest response is to toss your conclusions, and struggle with the resulting theological dilemma. Thousands of Christians before you have done it.

If you have time, may I ask you to read Glenn Morton's Story? He was a YEC Christian and geologist. When confronted with the actual rocks, he realized he'd been lied to. His faith was shaken. But today he is a Christian who speaks out against YEC.

Of course science is the best way to learn about the natural world. I never said it wasn't. But it's not 100% free of error.
We agree on this. It's chock full of error. Awful lot of errors. But still, fewer errors than anything else. That's because, uniquely, science is a method for gradually eliminating errors. And flood theory and YEC are two of the errors that science got rid of over a hundred years ago. Welcome to the 21st century!
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
What about "polystrate" fossils, such as trees, that go through several layers of strata? How do anti-Flood geologists explain them?

Or fossils of specimens "frozen" in some particular action?

Well, I'm no geologist, so here's an article from one:

To tell this, geologists look at the material surrounding the fossil.
It is possible the material is a sandstone made of wind-deposited sand. Some sandstones are essentially fossilized sand dunes. We know that in the modern world, sand dunes move fairly quickly. For example, the Sleeping Bear Sand Dunes, on the eastern shore of Lake Michigan, have been known to cover trees ten meters high in just a few years.
It is much commoner for these fossils to be buried by volcanic ash, or by a debris flow caused by an eruption. As Mt. St. Helens and Mt. Pinatubo showed, a single eruption is all that's needed, and even an intense pyroclastic flow does not flatten all of the trees. The Tertiary Period fossil forests in Yellowstone National Park, USA are of the volcanically-buried type.
It is even more common for these fossils to be found in sandstone or mudstone which gives evidence of being river-deposited. A rock of this type sometimes has layers which are each several meters thick. Many of these upright fossils are in Carboniferous Period rocks with coal deposits. There, they are often rooted in the top of the coal seams or in fossil soil deposits, and are buried in an overlying sedimentary rock. The upright fossils of Joggins, Nova Scotia, Canada are of this type.
In the present day, deposition just like this can be done by floods, by natural levee breaches, and by course changes of river channels. Such floods often repeat themselves several times per decade, particularly in a basin area which is sinking. Each repetition would leave one layer.
All known upright fossils were buried in days, a year or so, or else periodically across perhaps a few decades. They occur all over the world, because swamps, river deltas and volcanoes also occur all over the world.
from Polystyrate fossils

But without even understanding the geology, just think what those creationists are saying: Gee, all you geologists in every university in the world are so stupid. I'm sure that I, a hydraulic engineer or minister or whatever, know much more about these rocks than you do. You're all blinded by your prejudice. Bear in mind that the geologists who figured this stuff out in the 19th and 20th centuries were mostly very traditional Christians going out there and exploring God's great world. They solved this problem 100 years ago, without any atheist interpretation or presupposition. So it's unlikely that you're going to find anything on AIG that's going to stump them.

Speaking of AIG, the leading and most scientific creationist resource, any geologists on staff there? Any biologists? How odd, when the science in question is all about geology and biology.

The "frozen in action" maybe you could be more specific or refer me? I'm not familiar with the creationist claim.
 

Hope

Princesinha
This poses a terrible theological dilemma for you, and I am sensitive to it. This is why YEC leads to atheism, and is so harmful to Christianity. Many YEC fundamentalist Christians, when they realize that what they were told, or what their church holds about these actual historical events, is false, then question their entire religious faith. Since I am an atheist, and have never been Christian, I am not the best person to comment on this problem. It might be helpful if some Christians who did accept ToE (the Theory of Evolution) joined the conversation.

There have also been many atheists who became Christians for the reverse reasons. So I think saying YEC leads to atheism is a bit of an overgeneralization. ;)
 

Hope

Princesinha
"Frozen in action" means just what it says. I have read about all these fossils that involve specimans in the middle of eating, or fighting, or whatever. In other words, they were buried nearly instantaneously, and then fossilized. How is this explained?

As far as the polystrate fossils go, if geologists can accept the fact that things like floods caused some of them, then why is it so hard to accept a global flood as a possibility? Granted, I'm no geologist, but I just find it odd that this possibility is automatically dismissed. Is there some other reason they dismiss this possibility?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Another poor analogy of a fable or fairy tale being the same as the Bible. We all know fables are fables, and fairy tales are fairy tales, so why would we go looking for their invented characters?

The Bible, on the other hand, makes no such pretenses of being fiction.
Hmmm... I'd say Genesis at least has all the earmarks of a non-to-be-literally-interpreted story designed to teach moral lessons.

I never said religion was provable. All I was pointing out was the inherent contradiction involved in the claim that science has proven or disproven things when in reality it can't prove or disprove much at all. :D

Yes, but in the case of something like evolution, if you re-phrase it from "not completely proven, due to the imperfect nature of knowledge", to "supported almost as well as theories like gravity and magnetism", then its status becomes a bit more clear. ;)
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
There have also been many atheists who became Christians for the reverse reasons. So I think saying YEC leads to atheism is a bit of an overgeneralization. ;)
It CAN or has the potential of having that effect.

And frankly I doubt that any atheists became Christians because they were persuaded by the evidence for Noah's flood.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
"Frozen in action" means just what it says. I have read about all these fossils that involve specimans in the middle of eating, or fighting, or whatever. In other words, they were buried nearly instantaneously, and then fossilized. How is this explained?

As far as the polystrate fossils go, if geologists can accept the fact that things like floods caused some of them, then why is it so hard to accept a global flood as a possibility? Granted, I'm no geologist, but I just find it odd that this possibility is automatically dismissed. Is there some other reason they dismiss this possibility?
It's a possibility, in fact, it's the idea that they started out with. They just found over the centuries that it wasn't the case. It wasn't automatically dismissed, quite the contrary. It took about two centuries to realize that it was not the case. The reason it has now been ruled out is that the evidence doesn't support it. I listed a few of the problems in a previous post. I guess for me the biggie is that there just plain isn't that much water.

To flood the earth to the tops of the mountains takes X acre feet of water, and if you add up all the water on the surface of the earth, underneath the earth, and in the atmosphere, there isn't anything close to that many acre feet of water. It's not physically possible.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Well, you obviously know only one side of the story then. ;)

I don't think so. I have wasted spent many hours on the net discussing religion with people of all sides, here, at TheologyWeb and Internet Infidels. I have talked to people who converted to Christianity, but they rarely cite any evidence for anything as a reason for their conversion. (although I have seen this occasionally.) Usually it's emotional, has to do with where they were in their lives, and how belief in Jesus Christ worked for them. In any case, I have never met someone who converted to Christianity because they were persuaded by the geological evidence that there was once a worldwide flood. That would be odd, because the problem for YEcists is that the evidence in fact goes the other way. That is why the traditional Christian geologists who figured out that there was never a flood were able to do so, despite their religion.
 

Hope

Princesinha
I don't think so. I have wasted spent many hours on the net discussing religion with people of all sides, here, at TheologyWeb and Internet Infidels. I have talked to people who converted to Christianity, but they rarely cite any evidence for anything as a reason for their conversion. (although I have seen this occasionally.) Usually it's emotional, has to do with where they were in their lives, and how belief in Jesus Christ worked for them. In any case, I have never met someone who converted to Christianity because they were persuaded by the geological evidence that there was once a worldwide flood. That would be odd, because the problem for YEcists is that the evidence in fact goes the other way. That is why the traditional Christian geologists who figured out that there was never a flood were able to do so, despite their religion.

And yet I've read of scientists who became Christians because of the evidence shown in creation......

No matter how many people you've talked to, you're still only dealing with a small percentage of the population.

My point was simply that you're making a generalization that in no way can be proven.

By the way, what about those fossils frozen in action?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
And yet I've read of scientists who became Christians because of the evidence shown in creation......
Oh yes, I see. Yes, I think that's true, but please do not confuse "scientists" with atheists. I think there are people who become theists of various kinds because the wonders of nature cause them to believe there must be a divine creator. I do not agree, but that is a subject for a separate thread, well, actually, I'd rather not even argue the point--it's too difficult to resolve.

No matter how many people you've talked to, you're still only dealing with a small percentage of the population.
But a fairly representative one.

My point was simply that you're making a generalization that in no way can be proven.
You can see the logic though. If your Christianity is based on acceptance of a story that isn't true, then once you realize that, your religious faith is at risk. I do know one guy (on the net) who went from Christian to atheist as a result of realizing that ToE was correct and YEC is false. It was quite disconcerting for him.

By the way, what about those fossils frozen in action?
Sorry, Google did not lead me to anything, and I'm not familiar with this claim. Maybe you can give a link, even if it's from a creationist site, it would help me find something on this claim.
 
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