Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Yes they are. They are just simply different metaphors for the same thing. I will explain...
And Buddhists seek transcendence, or Nirvana, or fleeing the world of suffering. "Salvation from sin or 'hell'", is the same thing as "fleeing samsara" or the world of illusion and suffering. It's all about finding transcendence. "Salvation" is simply another term for Enlightenment, even if it's dressed up with different garb or verbage.
Exactly. This is "heaven" or "nirvana". The state of Unity or Oneness. Christianity expresses this as "reconciliation with God". Same thing.
This is simply a matter of differences of emphasis, such as "Atman" vs. "Anatman" or "Self" vs. No-Self" between Buddhism and Hinduism. Christianity imagines aspects of the egoic self retained, as the "soul", and so forth. These are not the Goal, per se. But more ways of imagining how that look in the Ulitmate Reality.
Which reflected their value system of Ultimate Good. The goal is the same. Transcendence to the Ultimate Good or Reality.
Same goal, different metaphysical systems.
I suppose a common theme between religions is each thinks there is some kind of problem that needs addressing.
Simplification is sometimes in order, when we can get lost in the weeds of focusing on the differences. We end up not being able to see the forest for the trees, in other words.
So, you're saying a car repair garage is a religion?
But we're not talking about personal opinions. We're talking about universal, factual, similarities or differences.No, I cannot prove that, it is just my personal opinion.
Others have different opinions since we all view things differently.
This does not sound like a personal opinion, and it's not supported by any proffered evidence. You're preaching again.
No, I did not make a sweeping declaration of objective, universal truth; I made a statement of my belief
It is not a claim, it is a belief. Nobody can prove that a belief is true, that is the nature of a belief. If it could be proven to be true it would be a fact, not a belief.
All we can have are personal opinions about religions because religions can never be proven true.
I believe it because of what my religion teaches. I believe in my religion because of the evidence the supports the truth of my religion, but that is not what this thread is about.
Buddhists don't believe in sin or Hell, and Christians don't believe in samsara or illusion. Salvation = "saving".... from Hell.
There is no Buddhist doctrine of reconciliation. This state of oneness is a solipsist unity with god. The individual ceases to be.
So what 'goal' are we talking about, or are we discussing comparative metaphysics? And are we comparing Abrahamic vs dharmic religions, or contrasting Hinduism and Buddhism?
But there is no unity consciousness in the Abrahamic religions. They're not about consciousness or expanded awareness at all.
But Reality and ultimate good don't strike me as the same thing. Eastern metaphysics isn't about good or bad. Abrahamic faiths aren't about ontology.
Again, what is this common goal?
You're getting hung up on the finger pointing at the moon, focusing on the finger instead of what the different fingers are pointing to.
Atman vs. Anatman. Dualism vs. Nonduality. These are all aspects of the Transcendent, or Ultimate Reality. They are all pointing to the same thing, "Through a glass darkly", as the Apostle Paul poetically put it.
Are you so sure of this? Some certainly do. "Pure Land Buddhism is built on the belief that there will never be a world which is not corrupt, so the rebirth in another plane, the "Pure Land", is the goal." Pure Land Buddhism - Wikipedia.
Same thing. That Liberated Awareness, is Heaven. It's the Transcendent. It's Atman, the Self, God, etc. Use whatever metaphor you prefer.
Finding the True Self, most certainly is. You get rid of the false self, the illusory self, and are 'reconciled' or made aware of the true Self within. Same thing, different metaphors to describe the same experience.
Yes, and no. Atman vs. Anatman. We are talking about the nondual here, so both are true, and neither is true. These are just ways for the dualistic mind to find words to describe something that goes beyond, yet includes both as true. There is the the Self and No-Self as equally true. Impossible to put into words.
We're comparing all of them. They all have the same underlying goal of transcendence and the end of suffering and separation as the same destination point, regardless of the symbolic systems and language they wrap around them. I very much agree with this statement from the Zen monk Ikkyu, "Many paths lead from the foot of the mountain, but at the peak we all gaze at the single bright moon.”
I view the Christian imagery like a children's story to help take the gross level view of the world and point it in the direction of the transcendent (or the subtle and causal as other words for it). Hinduism is more tailored towards more advanced students, college level even. That doesn't mean that Christian symbolism is "stupid" or immature. It just means it serves a different purpose to speak to the average mind, the novice or unaware to point them to the deeper truths behind the metaphors.
No? Are you sure?
Wrong.They're not about consciousness or expanded awareness at all.
Transcendence, liberation, Freedom. Enlightenment. Salvation. etc. It's all just different language systems to point to the same things. You seem to be arguing that the index finger is not the same as the ring finger, is not the same as the pinky finger, ignoring what each finger itself it pointing to.
Good point, and a great point when Hinduism is being considered. Nothing ramifies into endless, minute details like Hinduism.
Still not seeing it.
Not sure what overcoming means.
Esoteric? Abrahamic religions? How so?
Authentic religions?
But there is no concept of unity consciousness in the Abrahamic religions. Alteration of consciousness is not an Abrahamic thing, and salvation is a foreign concept among the dharmists.
Great, hopefully you'll be able to see it's the same in getting lost in the details of each particular religions doctrines as well. There is a larger picture to see for all of them, if you are able to pull back sufficiently enough to see it. By the way, if you didn't catch it in the last post, the fingers pointing at the moon metaphor, comes from Zen Buddhism, about Buddhism itself. People miss what the religion is pointing to, when they get hung up on the doctrines and the differences in doctrines.Good point, and a great point when Hinduism is being considered. Nothing ramifies into endless, minute details like Hinduism.
You think the four main yogas of Hinduism end up at different destinations? These are different paths that fit different types of people, but the end result should be the same for all of them, right?Still not seeing it.
Not true. Christianity teaches about "overcoming the world". That means, following the will of God, versus the way of the flesh (or the ego). To walk in the Spirit, is, ideally, walking in an Enlightened way. The whole thing is about transcending the ego.
Transcending the ego and its impulses. Overcoming the systems of the world which appeal to the 'flesh', or better put, the ego's avoidance of the Self. As simple as that, and as difficult as that to do. "Many are called, but few are chosen" in other words.
The dharmic religions speak of illusion, which is to say the illusion of the separate self. Sin, is the awareness of the separate self, or isolation from God. Maya, the word of illusion is the illusion of separateness. So sin is in fact, nothing other than the sense of separation from God - which is an illusion of the mind. You see? It's saying the same thing, just with different ways of talking about it. Both are aware of the same thing. Suffering, or a 'fallen state' as the Christians calls it.
Of course, yes. All religions have both exoteric forms, and esoteric realizations. See explanation above. Christianity has many mystical traditions within it, especially in the East. But in the West, you have St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, Meister Eckhart, the Desert Fathers, and so forth. Certainly Christianity can be an esoteric religion.
See reference above in the explanation of legitimate religion and authentic religion as separate distinctions.
Nonsense. They are identical. It's just different words for the same thing - experientially speaking, that is. Salvation is liberation from the bondage of the separate self, which creates suffering, or "salvation from sin", to use that metaphor. They are identical in a realized state.
They don't. I was only citing an example of what an illegitimate or inauthentic religion would look like. If you were looking for an example, then I'd say something maybe like black magic, or Satanism, where the person is seeking power to inflate their weak ego, sort of like Putin wanting to enlarge his ego by killing civilians, sort of illegitimacy. Or you could think of the trap of those seeking the siddhis to be a showoff and gain followers. That's illegitimate.
No it's not. "And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another." 2 Cor. 3:18. That is absolutely transcendence. That is only one of countless other examples within the Christian scriptures.
The same thing as removing obstacles in your life in order to overcome the ego. Prayers to Ganesha are towards that purpose, aren't they? To remove obstacles? That's "overcoming the world". It's the same thing in Christianity.
Well, I don't think Jesus necessarily thought that, as when asked which of her seven different husbands the woman who died would be bound with in heaven, Jesus called them fools, imagining they would be the same as on earth. "they neither marry or are given in marriage, but are as the angles in heaven". So I can't imagine it's just the genitalia that gets' lost after death.
The god of Islam is also a violent and unjust god. He needlessly tortures billions of people in hell, as well as killing millions, including innocent children, through natural disasters.
According to Islam, yes they are. The Quran says god of the Bible is the same god as the god of the Quran. Unfortunately, @stanberger doesn't appear to have read the Quran, so he wouldn't know that.