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Are animals conscious? Sentient?

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't get your reasoning here

Either you can experience stimuli/qualia or you cannot
If you want to be Vedic about it, but I don't equate worms and humans. I don't view a chicken and a fox as equals. I think one is more aware than the other, has more feeling, is more thoughtful. The chicken is dull and has been bred to be dull. The fox is clever and quick and is bred by hardship to be clever and quick. If worms are sentient, then sentience is nothing and there is no such thing as.
 

Eddi

Wesleyan Pantheist
Premium Member
Compare our eyesight to the sight of a horseshoe crab, whose eyes only see light and dark, and it cannot distinguish colors or detailed images.
I don't think having a less detailed sense of vision counts as being any less aware

All a sense of vision is is an input, like a camera

According to your logic blind people are less sentient than people who can see
 

Eddi

Wesleyan Pantheist
Premium Member
If you want to be Vedic about it, but I don't equate worms and humans. I don't view a chicken and a fox as equals. I think one is more aware than the other, has more feeling, is more thoughtful. The chicken is dull and has been bred to be dull. The fox is clever and quick and is bred by hardship to be clever and quick. If worms are sentient, then sentience is nothing and there is no such thing as.
I don't think that ordering animals in such a way is in any way helpful

I think such attempts put humans on a pedistool on which they don't belong

Take for instance pain

The pain a worm feels would be equal to that which a human feels, even if said worm is otherwise not self aware
 

McBell

Unbound
Are there really degrees of sentience though????

Surely you either have it or you don't?
The sentience quotient concept was introduced by Robert A. Freitas Jr. in the late 1970s.[36] It defines sentience as the relationship between the information processing rate of each individual processing unit (neuron), the weight/size of a single unit, and the total number of processing units (expressed as mass). It was proposed as a measure for the sentience of all living beings and computers from a single neuron up to a hypothetical being at the theoretical computational limit of the entire universe. On a logarithmic scale it runs from −70 up to +50.​
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't think that ordering animals in such a way is in any way helpful

I think such attempts put humans on a pedistool on which they don't belong

Take for instance pain

The pain a worm feels would be equal to that which a human feels, even if said worm is otherwise not self aware
The same goes for bacteria which are individual cells. Bacteria react to stimuli, too. They are very complex cells. Should I care as much about a bacterium as I do a human, or should I draw the line at worms?
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Yes of course they are sentient and conscious. Aka aware. Everything is. Including plants.
Now, as far as plants go, I'm not so sure at all. In my view, sentience has one important requirement, and that is a central nervous system, where feedback within the system can allow for higher-level processing than mere response to stimuli. Plants have neither synapses nor central nervous systems. Their response to their environment is entirely chemical and electrical but without anything that resembles a synapse, which is the basic requirement for complex data processing in living organisms.
 

Eddi

Wesleyan Pantheist
Premium Member
How do you propose to show that that is the case?
It has a central nervous system and a brain so of course it feels pain

I don't see why the pain an earthworm feels should be less than a human

I think it is very human-centric to dismiss the pain of "lesser" beasts
 

Eddi

Wesleyan Pantheist
Premium Member
The same goes for bacteria which are individual cells. Bacteria react to stimuli, too. They are very complex cells. Should I care as much about a bacterium as I do a human, or should I draw the line at worms?
No, however people should be aware they can suffer and try to minimise suffering

That should be some kind of prime directive
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I don't think having a less detailed sense of vision counts as being any less aware

All a sense of vision is is an input, like a camera

According to your logic blind people are less sentient than people who can see
If the only thing you are seeing is grey shadows, you are certainly NOT as aware of your environment.

That is correct. Someone who is blind or deaf is less aware. However, humans are so extraordinarily aware, that the difference here is pretty negligible, which is why no one would EVER say that someone blind or dear is not conscious or not sentient.
 

☆Dreamwind☆

Active Member
Idiot scientists-You guys we just discovered animals are sentient!

Anyone who has ever been around animals-Yeeesss we've only been telling you this forever. Are you gonna discover that it hurts if you stub your toe next?

Also humans are animals anyway.
 

Pete in Panama

Well-Known Member
It has a central nervous system and a brain so of course it feels pain

I don't see why the pain an earthworm feels should be less than a human

I think it is very human-centric to dismiss the pain of "lesser" beasts
We should be able to understand together that humans are profoundly different than the other animals and that feeling pain has little to do w/ the difference. People think and speak. OK so the other animals can think and speak too, but there's a huge difference how people can think about thinking and talk about talking. The other animals don't do that in any observable way.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Idiot scientists-You guys we just discovered animals are sentient!

Anyone who has ever been around animals-Yeeesss we've only been telling you this forever. Are you gonna discover that it hurts if you stub your toe next?

Also humans are animals anyway.
The difficulty here is, that despite that many people intuit animals are conscious, this intuition is not universal.

The philosopher who famously asserted that animals are mere automatons, lacking consciousness or feelings, was René Descartes. His reasoning was that they lacked the necessary intelligence and language.

So while the consciousness of animals may seem so apparent to you or me, it really is a very good thing that scientific research is also backing this up.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
And no less conscious or sentient
if consciousness is the same thing as awareness, then yes, they would be less conscious. But like I said, humans are so profoundly sentient that this hardly makes a dent in it. It's like, if you have an IQ of 150 and drop a point, its insignificant.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This just seemed really obvious. Who didn't think this?
Rival, believe it or not, a LOT of people don't think animals have thoughts and feelings. I remember when I was a kid and was asking my mom why God allowed animals to be eaten alive, her response was that they didn't feel any pain. Descarte used to say that animals were automata.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Rival, believe it or not, a LOT of people don't think animals have thoughts and feelings. I remember when I was a kid and was asking my mom why God allowed animals to be eaten alive, her response was that they didn't feel any pain. Descarte used to say that animals were automata.
To me knowing they have thoughts and feelings was intuitive.

But I'm confident this is the case, but I think it's at least in part due to indoctrination. I recall as a child arguing with a nun in class over this.
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
"Scientists push new paradigm of animal consciousness, saying even insects may be sentient

....All three of these discoveries came in the last five years — indications that the more scientists test animals, the more they find that many species may have inner lives and be sentient. A surprising range of creatures have shown evidence of conscious thought or experience, including insects, fish and some crustaceans. "


Duh....



 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
If you want to be Vedic about it, but I don't equate worms and humans. I don't view a chicken and a fox as equals. I think one is more aware than the other, has more feeling, is more thoughtful. The chicken is dull and has been bred to be dull. The fox is clever and quick and is bred by hardship to be clever and quick. If worms are sentient, then sentience is nothing and there is no such thing as.

The same goes for bacteria which are individual cells. Bacteria react to stimuli, too. They are very complex cells. Should I care as much about a bacterium as I do a human, or should I draw the line at worms?
Hi @Brickjectivity - This is an interesting line of thought.
Where then, should society "draw the line"? Mammals? Birds? Lizards? Only primates?

I agree with you, and while I'm vegan for the health of it, I find it pleasant to not be part of the slaughter of various animals for my nutrition. But if I run over a worm or ant, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I also have no qualms about exploiting yeast for bread and bees for their honey. :shrug:
But should people be punished for the deaths of animals that they cause? And if you're some sort of theist, then should all the deaths of animals caused by your life here on Earth, be weighed against your soul in the afterlife?
 
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