Are atheists irrational?

[Valjean]

Dunno why people get confused over the fact that atheism follows theism.

Atheism certainly did not precede theism.

The latter would have been irrational as I see it.

You're missing the point, NM. We're born atheist, only later do we learn about God. Atheism precedes theism.
If you're going to define atheism as a positive belief, as in strong atheism, use a modifier. Unmodified we assume you mean essential atheism, the simple lack of belief that defines the term.

 

[Sha'irullah]

How often have these things happened to you? Have they happened on this forum?

Never happened on this forum a lot but on other purely atheist forums, yes. On college campuses it happened a lot as well. It is hard to understand why words like Freethinker is used to describe the lack of thought on matters at all. A genuine disrespect to others yet alone your own group.

Just imagine how I feel being denied my own atheism by other atheists. I expect this amongst Christians who say, "you're not really an atheist, because deep down you know god is real."

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It Aint Necessarily So said: ↑

What would you call a person who responded with, "What's a god?" [please answer]

Try using that application with every single word in the English language that describes something. I take atheism as a meaningful term, follows the same way that any other word is formed to describe or apply with something.

Dunno why people get confused over the fact that atheism follows theism.

Atheism certainly did not precede theism.

That's your response? Thanks for your attention and cooperation.

 

[Sha'irullah]

=========================================================================

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me. Theism was widespread for millenniums before there the first atheist realized it was all &^%&%&%.

Heretic

Not my quote

 

[Twilight Hue]

You're definition is utilitarian. Most of us godless heathens define it more conceptually; more philosophically. Granted, without a theism to lack belief in, the term would be pretty useless, but it's still a valid concept, if only theoretically.

To the Walpiri of Australia, who's vocabulary of numeracy amounted to "One, two, many," would ten not still be a valid, albeit useless, concept?
If a tribe in the Amazon had never encountered any concepts of God, would they not be atheists -- if only by default?
Atheism is the default position. We're born atheist and remain so till we choose to adopt a God concept. The designation might not be useful, but it's apt.

Ok I think I see what your driving at . My arguement here was over the institution and usage of the term, not the original (default/neutral) disposition of people for which I agree with you and others.

Everyone didn't believe in God until someone created the term theist and proposed an introduction and challenge. Atheism as a term was created afterwards in response.

That's the gist of my arguements to which I am trying to point out that the concept of theism had to be first introduced in order for the descriptive term of atheism to follow.

 

[Sha'irullah]

To be an "atheist" is to hold the position that "God does not exist. Since there is no way to know something like that does not exist, then yes it is irrational to be an atheist. But not to be a nonbeliever or agnostic. Or, as the lead character in my new novel puts it: "If God there be then I am His. If not then He is mine." The title if the novel (on Amazon) is "Wayward World".

Atheist just means "no god" and has no literal meaning other than that. It also does not state the direct disbelief in a deity as it is not implied until further questioning.

For example you can ask a person if they believe tomorrow is Tuesday and they will say yes. You talk to them some more and they state that they know tomorrow is Tuesday because a magical dragon came to them last night and informed them so.

So you can get a completely rational or irrational assumption yet have the wackiest premises or reason for it.

 

[Jumi]

I'm sure as with anything people identify with, there are bound to be plenty of opinionated and even fanatical people. It doesn't make a whole group irrational if there are some or even many who are irrational.

 

[Twilight Hue]

We were atheists before we were theists both as a species and individually:

"All children are born atheist. They have no idea of God" - Baron d'Holbach

To my recollection, my parents never spoke to me about any gods, and we didn't do the things characteristic of theistic families such as pray at meals, read holy books, or attend weekly gatherings. We had no extra respect or disrespect for clergy, and no concepts such as sin or blasphemy in our consciousness. We were (and are) atheists.

I don't see a response to theism there. There wasn't really much acknowledgement that it existed. Eventually, theists came along and try to talk me into joining their religions. I said, "No thank you." That might have been my first response to theism.

You might be thinking linguistically rather than ideologically.

There are things that came earlier but were named later, such as acoustic guitars. Before the advent of electric guitars, there were just guitars. They were all acoustic and there was no more need to identify them as acoustic than to identify them as strung or tunable. Likewise with snow skiing and Classic Coke, which were skiing and Coke before water skiing and New Coke came along. Obviously, Word War I didn't get that name until there was a World War II.

Atheism and theism have a similar relationship. Atheism is older than theism, although the word and even the concept may be newer.

This is not the case with antitheism, which is definitely a reaction to theism. Whereas atheism exists with or without theism in the world, and whether it has a name or not, theism must precede antitheism.

Do you disagree with any of that?

The thing is, unlike guitars, theism really dosent exist save for the idea that someone thought up and attempted to pass on as substantial. I do agree however in the context that you present it. Maybe signals are getting crossed.

 

[Lorgar-Aurelian]

As an avid atheist and to the greater degree anti-theist I have been trying for over a year to come to grips with what I believe and stand for. So many atheists prattle about reason and logic while even when I was a Muslim I did the exact same thing although with less intellectual contradictions. The more I speak to atheists and try to understand things that are valued to us like science and pragmaticism I find myself incapable of rationalizing my own atheism.

When I was a Muslim the primary reason I left Islam was because of other Muslims and also become of the ideology yet here I am in something that should be creedless and the minute I question something that is secular I am a public enemy amongst atheists. Just by questioned transgender issues I have been called a fake atheist and closet Christian. I used to cling to being a deist for this very reason as I could never understand the anger I witnessed by atheists, it made no sense to be angry at not religion but at secular ideas.

I witness conservatives, Christians, libertarians and pragmatic thinkers on religion criticize atheist for creating gods out of secular constructs and I can't help but wonder that this is the truth. As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

First off, nice to see another ex muslim.
Human beings are only partially rational. We tend to have an emotional response or reason behind something then try to use logic to back it up. Atheists like every other group have a lot of tribalism. They will set personal standards for what something means then decide that if you go against their standards you are not truly part of the group.

Atheists do create gods out of secular constructs. They hold up something as sacred then will deny in the same breath that anything can be sacred. They ( just like Christians) love criticism of other parties until you start to criticize them. This is part of the reason people like the creators of southpark are my favorite atheists in the media.

I think you and I are in the same boat in some sense though I do not know you particular case. Part of the reason I started drifting away from atheism was the way most atheists have behaved towards me and others. Don't get me wrong I can be just as much of a prick and can easily be accused of saying dumb **** when I get emotional but I would rather not associate with that sort of group.

I can't say for certain if I am becoming religious again ( Zoroastrianism and Taoism seem to be calling me from time to time) but I will say that people should be able to live their lives with or without faith and calling people idiots just because they believe in something you don't is beyond silly. I've done this in the past and I now strive to never do it again. I'd like to have more respect for people than that.

 

[Enoch07]

As an avid atheist and to the greater degree anti-theist I have been trying for over a year to come to grips with what I believe and stand for. So many atheists prattle about reason and logic while even when I was a Muslim I did the exact same thing although with less intellectual contradictions. The more I speak to atheists and try to understand things that are valued to us like science and pragmaticism I find myself incapable of rationalizing my own atheism.

When I was a Muslim the primary reason I left Islam was because of other Muslims and also become of the ideology yet here I am in something that should be creedless and the minute I question something that is secular I am a public enemy amongst atheists. Just by questioned transgender issues I have been called a fake atheist and closet Christian. I used to cling to being a deist for this very reason as I could never understand the anger I witnessed by atheists, it made no sense to be angry at not religion but at secular ideas.

I witness conservatives, Christians, libertarians and pragmatic thinkers on religion criticize atheist for creating gods out of secular constructs and I can't help but wonder that this is the truth. As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

The answer to your question is yes, they can be. That does not mean that all are irrational. They are humans just like the rest of us and suffer the same flaws. Some athiest are cool with thiest, some are militant and hostile. Some athiest believe in ideologies instead of a religion, and can be just as zealous as any other extremist, or not. At least it solves the age old question of "Would the world be better off without religion?" Because people will always find something to argue/fight/war with others, religious or not. The only difference is they do it in the name of >insert random idelogy here <.

 

[Sha'irullah]

First off, nice to see another ex muslim.
Human beings are only partially rational. We tend to have an emotional response or reason behind something then try to use logic to back it up. Atheists like every other group have a lot of tribalism. They will set personal standards for what something means then decide that if you go against their standards you are not truly part of the group.

This is where I feel like an outcast. I apologize about this but really the purpose of this post was to gripe at the idiocy I have been facing for the last year.

It seems only natural to me that atheism would lack anything concrete in terms of ideology or creed because it should be void of such things.

Atheists do create gods out of secular constructs. They hold up something as sacred then will deny in the same breath that anything can be sacred. They ( just like Christians) love criticism of other parties until you start to criticize them. This is part of the reason people like the creators of southpark are my favorite atheists in the media.

I think you and I are in the same boat in some sense though I do not know you particular case. Part of the reason I started drifting away from atheism was the way most atheists have behaved towards me and others. Don't get me wrong I can be just as much of a prick and can easily be accused of saying dumb **** when I get emotional but I would rather not associate with that sort of group.

This is how I have become lately. I have stepped down from anti-theism and have become more apathetic to religious discussion. I love calling out nonsense when I see it but at the same time I feel as if I cannot use rational discourse to discuss serious topics if every thing religious will be tossed aside as "woo."

I can't say for certain if I am becoming religious again ( Zoroastrianism and Taoism seem to be calling me from time to time) but I will say that people should be able to live their lives with or without faith and calling people idiots just because they believe in something you don't is beyond silly. I've done this in the past and I now strive to never do it again. I'd like to have more respect for people than that.

I understand how you feel. I get a strong yearning for Islam yet at the same time I value Pythagorean philosophy/geometry and have an ambition to dig up the pagan roots of Islam so it can be paganized. At least I have ambitions

 

[Altfish]

I am a non-believer so why are you telling me about my own group? I know my own group well which is my complaint.

Also, so many weird phrases in your posts that are nonsensical to atheism. Also I never regarded myself as an atheist as anti-theism was much more fitting.

I was responding to the post...whether it was from a non-believer or not was irrelevant.

Would you care to tell me which "weird phrases in your posts that are nonsensical to atheism"; I'm unaware of any.

 

[Notanumber]

Voltaire was right.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You're missing the point, NM. We're born atheist, only later do we learn about God. Atheism precedes theism.
If you're going to define atheism as a positive belief, as in strong atheism, use a modifier. Unmodified we assume you mean essential atheism, the simple lack of belief that defines the term.

Thanks for the clarification. I was referring the initial use of the terms and the ideological aspects by which the terms theism and atheism represent. Theism as a term itself came about followed by atheism as a response by way of the terminology.

I totally agree that we were born (default) without theistic beliefs by which theism was a later introduced concept followed by a response for which the term atheism applied. Not our natural born disposition of course. :0)

 

[BilliardsBall]

As an avid atheist and to the greater degree anti-theist I have been trying for over a year to come to grips with what I believe and stand for. So many atheists prattle about reason and logic while even when I was a Muslim I did the exact same thing although with less intellectual contradictions. The more I speak to atheists and try to understand things that are valued to us like science and pragmaticism I find myself incapable of rationalizing my own atheism.

When I was a Muslim the primary reason I left Islam was because of other Muslims and also become of the ideology yet here I am in something that should be creedless and the minute I question something that is secular I am a public enemy amongst atheists. Just by questioned transgender issues I have been called a fake atheist and closet Christian. I used to cling to being a deist for this very reason as I could never understand the anger I witnessed by atheists, it made no sense to be angry at not religion but at secular ideas.

I witness conservatives, Christians, libertarians and pragmatic thinkers on religion criticize atheist for creating gods out of secular constructs and I can't help but wonder that this is the truth. As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.

As of now I cannot call myself an atheist anymore. I do not believe in the supernatural yet all I have left is philosophy and all that emanates from it.

Atheism is a rational position to me yet every atheist I know is so irrational.

I would reframe this as atheists are rationalists but add some strong subjective and emotions-based criteria to their logic.

I would say belief in Jesus as the Christ is the outcome of any prolonged rational study on the issues.

 

[Valjean]

I would say belief in Jesus as the Christ is the outcome of any prolonged rational study on the issues.

So why is Christianity not common knowledge, if it's so rational and evidenced? Why isn't it universally accepted? Why do so many otherwise intelligent people believe other things?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I would reframe this as atheists are rationalists but add some strong subjective and emotions-based criteria to their logic.

The trick is to learn to compartmentalize emotions and not let them determine the outcome of one's critical thinking - a learned habit of thought.

Note that this is not the same as suppressing emotion, but merely recognizing that it should not be part of the problem solving process, which ideally is dispassionate and impartial, and involves only evidence and sound reasoning. This process then informs us of which emotions are healthy, which serve us, which should be indulged and under what circumstances, etc..

I would say belief in Jesus as the Christ is the outcome of any prolonged rational study on the issues.

Empirically, that is incorrect. Most of the world's best minds have not come to that conclusion.

Why? Because there is no way to arrive at Christianity using reason. Even your Bible tells you that that is an act of faith.

 

[viole]

As of now I am sure this is the truth as I am incapable of finding an atheist who is stringent with his principles and a fervent believer in safeguarding his own morals.
.

Well, maybe that is because what you expect does not make a lot of sense.

I am an atheist. And for me, disbelief in God is equivalent to disbelief in Mickey Mouse being the trascendent giver of our moral values, or being the creator of the Universe. Since both share the same exact plausibility and evidence, i really do not see why I should prefer one over the other.

I can assure you that I am quite stringent with my principles, concerning the existence of God and Mickey Mouse, among all possible products of the human mind, and a fervent believer in safeguarding my own morals.

I like cheese and the golden rule, but that is the only possible contradiction you might find in my disbelief in Mickey Mouse and God, respectively.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Notanumber]

Are atheists irrational?

If atheists are irrational, what does that make those theists that want to become suicide bombers?

 

[Sahm Kohm]

You are quite correct, atheism is as irrational as theism.

The only logical position is agnosticism which holds that there may or may not be a God or many Gods or even a divine spaghetti monster, but that there is insufficient evidence to prove anything either way.

You may have guessed that I am an agnostic.