Are atheists liars, deniers or..?

[Deidre]

I'd say atheists are misunderstood. Having left faith, and identified as one for a short while, then returning to faith, it was eye opening for me to realize that atheism wasn't at all what I once thought. It's often misunderstood, and most atheists are very much ''live and let live'' types of people.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

really? I learned that on Richard Dawkins site. He loves universally giant brushes!!!

Which is EXACTLY my point. Richard Dawkins isn't the grand poobah of atheism, atheism isn't doctrinal, and WHATEVER you learn from one atheist can't be extrapolated and applied to all atheists. Ergo, you are using too broad a brush.

To recap, you said the following;

In context to atheism I never ever get the impression that atheists consider atheism as flawed reasoning at all, but rather profoundly brilliant and atheism always always relies on flawed reasoning in religion as justification to prop that fantasy up. Atheism does not exist except as a mental disorder if religious believers did not exist. And as far as I have been able to understand all atheists believe there are atheists, religious believers and agnostics and that's it!!!! That is False.

You've suggested that all atheists find atheism as profoundly brilliant reasoning, which I don't. And you understand the ALL atheists believe there are atheists, religious believers and agnostics, and that's all, which I don't.
So you're painting a broad brush based on your interactions and understanding of a small group of atheists (at best).

If you'd like to point out any time in my history on this site where I have made the inferences you are mentioning, feel free. Otherwise, I stand by my assertion. Your brush is too broad.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'd say atheists are misunderstood. Having left faith, and identified as one for a short while, then returning to faith, it was eye opening for me to realize that atheism wasn't at all what I once thought. It's often misunderstood, and most atheists are very much ''live and let live'' types of people.

Hmm...I'll take your word for it. I just see them as people. Some good, some not so good, and all with many motivations and thoughts beyond whatever motivation atheism supposedly provides.
However, it's nice for someone to generalise about us in a NICE fashion, rather than a less than complimentary one.

 

[Deidre]

Hmm...I'll take your word for it. I just see them as people. Some good, some not so good, and all with many motivations and thoughts beyond whatever motivation atheism supposedly provides.
However, it's nice for someone to generalise about us in a NICE fashion, rather than a less than complimentary one.

I don't understand generalizing ...in general. lol If none of us shared what our religious ''status'' or non-status is, we'd all get along just fine. It seems that once that enters into things, people's mind's shift. *shrug*

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't understand generalizing ...in general. lol If none of us shared what our religious ''status'' or non-status is, we'd all get along just fine. It seems that once that enters into things, people's mind's shift. *shrug*

Naw. Sadly, I don't agree.
As a simple example, go and make a strong statement either for or against abortion, and you'll quickly see that religions impact (whether you see it as positive or negative) goes beyond mere labels.

 

[Deidre]

Naw. Sadly, I don't agree.
As a simple example, go and make a strong statement either for or against abortion, and you'll quickly see that religions impact (whether you see it as positive or negative) goes beyond mere labels.

True, but if we stayed away from lethal topics, in general...life might be easier. Labels can be dividers. :/

 

[lewisnotmiller]

True, but if we stayed away from lethal topics, in general...life might be easier. Labels can be dividers. :/

Labels can definitely be dividers. They lead to some pretty weird black and white thinking, you have that 100% correct.

 

[paarsurrey]

What you actually mean is that everybody who don't believe exactly what you believe are wrong. No need to single out atheists.

Unless they justify their stands with positive and reasonable arguments.
Regards

 

[FearGod]

Or insert any other theory about why atheists don't believe. It's interesting, because this accusation is sometimes thrown around by some members on RF.

EDIT: I should have made this more clear, I'm talking mainly of a rigid concept of god here, mostly in a classical monotheistic sense. Also even if you do espouse such a god concept, it's possible you do not make such accusations so no worries here, I'm ranting about those who do.

If god is so evident, how come I don't feel it is? If god was obvious, I wouldn't have spent all this time searching, praying to get a sign, reading books and so on. It would just be obvious and I would just believe in god. I don't reject the possibility of a god existing, I just don't have a reason to believe it does because I don't see it as obvious.

What is obvious about something you can't see, talk to, verify, hear, feel and so on? It's invisible, not detectable at all. How am I supposed to believe in something like that? Why does god expect me to believe when I can't even verify anything? People in the past had god talk directly to them and prophets talked to god, why can't I? I tried many times, never worked. All I hear in my head is my own voice, and outside of my head, nothing.

If god exists, it created me with a mind that questions things, that can't believe just because someone tells me to. My mind was made to accept evidence that was tested, born from sound theories and inquisition. My mind accepts there are mysteries, maybe some will never be understood, but science has a tract record of revealing these mysteries and finding how things work rather than just assuming "god did it". Then if god exists and he knows this is how my mind works, it makes no sense for it to think I would just believe. Think about it.

It's much easier to just think that atheists or non-theists are defective, liars or deniers than to admit that maybe that "theory" is wrong and god isn't obvious. I'll be the first to admit being wrong if I could come upon how evident god is. I'm not sure I can say the same of people who throw these accusations around.

I'm sorry for my harsh tone but it really bothers me when people say things like that. You don't know every atheist's life and how some either believed in the past or tried to believe but couldn't. Speaking for myself, I wanted so badly to believe that god exists, to the point of trying to fool myself, and yet nothing happened. I struggled so much. You have no idea of the hardships in my life and how it would be easier if I could believe in a god.

This thread does come off as a rant, but I've put it in this section so that people can speak freely and debate.

Not all atheists are bad and not all religious are good, regarding evidences,
you may believe that the unconscious stone did it if it sounds rational to you
or God for those who believe it's more complicated than just the stones or
any other material things.

 

[ArtieE]

Unless they justify their stands with positive and reasonable arguments.
Regards

Nobody is required to justify not believing exactly what you believe paarsurrey. But if you want others to believe exactly what you believe you are the one who has to justify your beliefs the others have nothing to justify they are just waiting for you to convince them.

 

[FearGod]

Nobody is required to justify not believing exactly what you believe paarsurrey. But if you want others to believe exactly what you believe you are the one who has to justify your beliefs the others have nothing to justify they are just waiting for you to convince them.

Why you need someone to convince you?

 

[ArtieE]

Why you need someone to convince you?

I don't "need" someone to convince me of anything. But if you want me to believe exactly what you believe you must provide enough evidence for what you believe so that I after weighing all the evidence must say "I have weighed the evidence and using logic and reason I accept that what you say must be true beyond a reasonable doubt." That goes for gods and bigfoot and everything.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Unless they justify their stands with positive and reasonable arguments.
Regards

Nice use of the word 'positive' to try and point score.
Please justify why you believe there aren't little blue men with 3 eyes, each of which is a different shape, and whom drive Toyota Camry motor vehicles, all of which are silver in colour, living on the third planet in the Andromeda galaxy.

Please use only positive arguments to do this.

 

[FearGod]

I don't "need" someone to convince me of anything. But if you want me to believe exactly what you believe you must provide enough evidence for what you believe so that I after weighing all the evidence must say "I have weighed the evidence and using logic and reason I accept that what you say must be true beyond a reasonable doubt." That goes for gods and bigfoot and everything.

Do you accept the prophecies in which the prophets telling some of the future
events that gonna to happen as an evidence or you regard the prophecies
as a stroke of luck the same as you regard the universe is?

 

[ArtieE]

Do you accept the prophecies in which the prophets telling some of the future
events that gonna to happen as an evidence or you regard the prophecies
as a stroke of luck the same as you regards the universe is?

I can't see any connection between people supposedly being able to foretell future events and the existence of gods.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I can't see any connection between people supposedly being able to foretell future events and the existence of gods.

You need to squint harder and turn your head just so.

 

[FearGod]

I can't see any connection between people supposedly being able to foretell future events and the existence of gods.

If I told you that the American Indians will take over the USA in the future,
will you believe it?

 

[ArtieE]

If I told you that the American Indians will take over the USA in the future,
will you believe it?

I have no idea how many there are left and how much influence they have in the American government. I would have to read up on that to be able to have an informed opinion.

 

[FearGod]

I have no idea how many there are left and how much influence they have in the American government. I would have to read up on that to be able to have an informed opinion.

If you know that they're very few in number and have no power at all,
do you believe the American Indians can take over the USA in the future?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you accept the prophecies in which the prophets telling some of the future
events that gonna to happen as an evidence or you regard the prophecies
as a stroke of luck the same as you regard the universe is?

Oh sure...they are very detailed and specific. No room for interpretation at ALL with those...