Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[KWED]

You said that? That's the most profound thing I ever heard. Surely you must be a prophet!

I seem to remember there was a study done where people had to decide whether a statement was from a prophetic source or made up by the people running the test. If there wasn't, I feel a research project coming on...

 

[KWED]

In the long run CG, one has to decide if they should mock God, or submit to God.

You are missing the point. We are not mocking god because there is no god. We are mocking the idea that there is a god, and the irrational claims people make about it. (Note: not mocking religionists because they have mostly been indoctrinated from infancy, and a few experienced some kind of trauma or psychotic episode, so it isn't really their fault that they believe such nonsense)

 

[KWED]

Democracy in the U.S.? It's kind of a joke. One side claims the other side stole the election, and the other side says those others tried to steal the election.

The Republicans are certainly engineering electoral change that could effectively end democracy in the US by making a Democrat win pretty much impossible.

 

[KWED]

Islam teaches us that it needs to be total submission to Allah's Will.

What does Allah want you to do?

 

[KWED]

Policy said: You keep saying new world order, But everything that you're citing looks like the same old same old that we've had for most of human history.

Trailblazer said: When have we ever had a world commonwealth or a democratically elected world government based on principles of equity and justice?

Please note that I did not SAY we have one now. What I was citing was about the FUTURE.
Nobody except God knows how far in the future it will be.

Baháʼu'lláh taught that the future order will be the embodiment God's scheme for mankind.[3] Later on his successors, ʻAbdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi, interpreted "unification of mankind" as the eventual establishment of a world commonwealth, later as a democratic elected world government based on principles of equity and justice.[4]

Read more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_world_order_(Baháʼí)

So your claim that the old world order is being rolled up and a new one is coming was false. You merely believe it might happen some time in the future.
This is just another of those wild claims you make that quickly unravels under examination.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, Bahaullah was clearly wrong as there were no battles on the Rhine in WW1

No, Baha'u'llah was not wrong because He never said that there were battles on the Rhine in WW1.
Some Baha'is mistakenly believe that is what Baha'u'llah was referring to, but those Baha'is are wrong.
My friend @Truthseeker is the one who pointed that out to me.

Below are excerpts from the Tablet to Napoleon III

“Give ear, O King, unto the Voice that calleth from the Fire which burneth in this verdant Tree, on this Sinai which hath been raised above the hallowed and snow-white Spot, beyond the Everlasting City: ‘Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful!’ ……. Arise thou to serve God and help His Cause. He, verily, will assist thee with the hosts of the seen and unseen, and will set thee king over all that whereon the sun riseth. Thy Lord, in truth, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty......

Ere long the world and all that thou possessest will perish, and the kingdom will remain unto God, thy Lord and the Lord of thy fathers of old. It behoveth thee not to conduct thine affairs according to the dictates of thy desires. Fear the sighs of this Wronged One, and shield Him from the darts of such as act unjustly.

For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behoveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: ‘Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!’” Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, pp. 18-20

That Tablet was written in 1869 when Napoleon III was at the height of His glory. In 1870, Napoleon III fell in battle:

In July 1870, Napoleon entered the Franco-Prussian War without allies and with inferior military forces. The French army was rapidly defeated and Napoleon III was captured at the Battle of Sedan.
Napoleon III - Wikipedia

Shoghi Effendi, Guardian of the Baha'i Faith, explains what happened in God Passes By:

“William I, the pride-intoxicated newly-acclaimed conqueror of Napoleon III, admonished in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and bidden to ponder the fate that had overtaken “one whose power transcended” his own, warned in that same Book, that the “lamentations of Berlin” would be raised and that the banks of the Rhine would be “covered with gore,” sustained two attempts on his life, and was succeeded by a son who died of a mortal disease, three months after his accession to the throne, bequeathing the throne to the arrogant, the headstrong and short-sighted William II. The pride of the new monarch precipitated his downfall. Revolution, swiftly and suddenly, broke out in his capital, communism reared its head in a number of cities; the princes of the German states abdicated, and he himself, fleeing ignominiously to Holland, was compelled to relinquish his right to the throne. The constitution of Weimar sealed the fate of the empire, whose birth had been so loudly proclaimed by his grandfather, and the terms of an oppressively severe treaty provoked “the lamentations” which, half a century before, had been ominously prophesied.” God Passes By, p. 226

Then a few years later, circa 1873, Baha'u'llah had this Tablet delivered to Kaiser Wilhelm I

Tablet to Kaiser Wilhelm I

“O KING of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple: Verily, there is none other God but Me, the Everlasting, the Peerless, the Ancient of Days. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and of the earth below. Thus counselleth thee the Pen of the Most High. He, verily, is the Most Gracious, the All-Bountiful. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station. Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 39

The first turn when the swords of retribution were drawn against Germany for rejecting Baha’u’llah was the first battle that was fought, the Franco-Prussian War.

In July 1870, Napoleon entered the Franco-Prussian War without allies and with inferior military forces. The French army was rapidly defeated and Napoleon III was captured at the Battle of Sedan.
Franco-Prussian War - Wikipedia

The second turn when the swords of retribution were drawn against Germany for rejecting Baha’u’llah was World War I.

 

[Trailblazer]

He was born into the aristocracy and married into nobility. He was multilingual and wrote many books and pamphlets on a wide range of issues. The idea that he was uneducated, poorly-read and semi-literate, and had no interest world affairs is obvious nonsense.

How would you know? Baha'u'llah had innate knowledge and He did not learn what He knew in any school. Not only did Baha'u'llah have innate knowledge, He received knowledge from God:

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.”” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

 

[Trailblazer]

In the long run CG, one has to decide if they should mock God, or submit to God.

Regards Tony

I have chosen the latter, although it took a while.

 

[Trailblazer]

I envision a world order ruled over by giant, malevolent hamsters who farm humans for their thought energy.

By your argument, I am right until this prediction is proved to have never happened.

Incorrect. You are not right until your prediction happens.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are missing the point. We are not mocking god because there is no god. We are mocking the idea that there is a god, and the irrational claims people make about it. (Note: not mocking religionists because they have mostly been indoctrinated from infancy, and a few experienced some kind of trauma or psychotic episode, so it isn't really their fault that they believe such nonsense)

You are mocking the idea of God but God does not like being mocked, and whether you believe God exists or not, God knows your every thought.

 

[Trailblazer]

So your claim that the old world order is being rolled up and a new one is coming was false. You merely believe it might happen some time in the future.
This is just another of those wild claims you make that quickly unravels under examination.

I did not claim it, I believe it, and it is not false unless the old world order is not being rolled
It is also not false unless a new world order never comes. Until then it is unknown.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I envision a world order ruled over by giant, malevolent hamsters who farm humans for their thought energy.

By your argument, I am right until this prediction is proved to have never happened.

Are you claiming God gave you that wisdom as Prophecy to share with the world?

Therein lays the difference.

Regards Tony

 

[Tiberius]

No, I do not know how to use it, so I just do the best that I can.
I do not know how to use a cell phone either, and I have had one for about 22 years!

Using quotes is easy.

at the text you want to have appear as a quote, you put an open square bracket, like this [

Then you write QUOTE.

Then a close square bracket ]

You should have [quote]

Then you have whatever text you want to have as the quote.

then, to finish the quote, you do the same thing, except you put a / in front of the word quote.

So if you write:

[quote]This is quoted text.[./quote]

You will get

This is quoted text.

 

[Tiberius]

No, I did NOT start the thread for 'opinions' about the prophecies. I only started the thread to find out if people think that Baha'u'llah's prophecies about <the old world order being rolled up and a new world order is rising in its stead> are coming true.

I said: The old world order being rolled up and a new world order is rising in its stead. Not only the Baha’is but many other people have seen this process unfolding all over the world at an ever-increasing pace but it has become even more apparent now that war has broken out in the Ukraine.

Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true? In the latter half of the 19th century, Baha’u’llah prophesied that what we are seeing now would take place. I believe that humans will build the new world order with the assistance of God and what was revealed by Baha’u’llah.​

​

So you started a thread about whether we think the prophecies are coming true, but you don't want us to give our opinions on whether the prophecies are coming true.

Why did you think I wanted to discuss the prophecies? I only wanted to know if people thought they were coming true. This was not intended to be a discussion about Baha'u'llah and whether His prophecies measure up to your standards for a good prophecy.

You said: This "prophecy" about a "new world order" is vague, and thus fails point five in my list of things that a real prophecy requires (see my signature). There are dozens of things in the last century that it could equally apply to.

There is no need to insult me just because you misunderstood why I started the thread. Are you ABOVE misunderstanding someone else's motives? I misunderstand other people and when I am corrected I acknowledge that I misunderstood and I often apologize for implying something I had assumed that was incorrect.

You completely miss the fact that the prophecies can only come true if they are valid prophecies to begin with.

Yes, if the prophecies were coming true it would mean that a new world order is coming. Conversely, if a new world order is coming that would mean that the prophecies are coming true.

I am not trying to have one without the other. I just wanted to know if people think Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true. In other words, I wanted to know if people see what I see happening in the world, the old world order being rolled up and a new world order is rising in its stead.

Again, we must establish that they are valid prophecies before we can ask if the prophecies are coming true.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So you admit that other people make accurate predictions of that kind that are not miraculous.
And remind me how his solution to WW1 went?

I am offering there is no point to me discussing this with you.

I will wish you safety and happiness in the years to come and offer that in naught but Love.

As the calamities continue to unfold, and great destruction does visit us all, bring into memory these discussions, and that, try as we might, no matter how appropriate or inappropriately we offered this, people still chose not to listen.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What does Allah want you to do?

Live in peace and brotherhood as one people on one planet.

Serve each other, help each other, Love all people, free of all predudices.

Obey the laws of God, Prayer, Fast and bring ourselves to account each day.

Every day, strive to be a better person.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are missing the point. We are not mocking god because there is no god. We are mocking the idea that there is a god, and the irrational claims people make about it. (Note: not mocking religionists because they have mostly been indoctrinated from infancy, and a few experienced some kind of trauma or psychotic episode, so it isn't really their fault that they believe such nonsense)

Some one is missing the point. Mocking is not a virtue.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Using quotes is easy.

at the text you want to have appear as a quote, you put an open square bracket, like this [

Then you write QUOTE.

Then a close square bracket ]

You should have [.quote]

Then you have whatever text you want to have as the quote.

then, to finish the quote, you do the same thing, except you put a / in front of the word quote.

So if you write:

[.quote]This is quoted text.[./quote]

You will get

Okay thanks. I will try that next time I want to quote someone.

 

[CG Didymus]

37For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man


These verses are saying, that when Christ returns, it will be like when Noah came. Just as when Noah came, and people were too busy with worldly things, and unaware and careless about God, then, God sent the flood and destroyed all, so, it will happen when Christ returns who is, Baha'u'llah. And the year, was alluded also, being 1260 AH, or the end of 2300 years, which is 1844. Albeit all is decoded, so, people are free to accept or reject.

To say that nobody was or is thinking about God is a gross exaggeration.

And let's take a look at the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy...

Daniel 8:9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

This horn took away the daily sacrifice. Who was this horn and when did he take away the sacrifice? Why not start counting the 2300 morning and evenings from then? That's what fits the context. But no, Baha'is and William Miller decided to start counting the 2300 mornings and evenings from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457BC. Why? It has nothing to do with taking away the daily sacrifice. Then the 2300 evenings and mornings are made into years and lo and behold they come to the year 1844. That's amazing. But I don't agree with where Baha'is start counting.

So, is it alright to manipulate prophecies in order to arrive at the desired year? Is it alright to ignore the context and only take the part you can use to your benefit? Or is that all part of "decoding"? I don't think it is. So, yes, I reject the Baha'i interpretation of several Bible prophecies.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is all about our own choices CG. Jesus showed us that God is our only help and it is only in God we trust. Islam teaches us that it needs to be total submission to Allah's Will.

It is when men do not submit, that they add their flavour to the teachings.

Regards Tony

Okay, before 1844, all people in the world should submit to the teachings of the Quran? Or was there problem with Islam? Then before Islam, all people should have submitted themselves to the teachings of Jesus? No, for sure we all know that Christianity was corrupt. So, why now? Why should anyone trust any religion, completely, blindly? Isn't it good to question it and make sure it is the truth? Of course, it is. And that is what lots of people are doing here, but it is the believers that can't answer the hard questions. All the believers have is their trust and faith that their religion is the right one and is speaking the truth. And they all have a variation of the truth. So, which one? Your answer is obvious, the Baha'i Faith. Great, but some of us are finding issues with it.