Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[KWED]

I cannot logically accommodate the Baha'i Faith being a fraud, it just makes no sense at all.

That is called "cognitive dissonance". It is a well established psychological phenomenon. It is no different to the devoted and loving husband being unable to accept that his wife is being unfaithful, even when shown evidence.

 

[KWED]

Science textbooks? Hell, I have read more cogent fantasy novels.

Yeah, fair play.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

As you made the claim, you can present a passage that could not possibly have been written by a human. It is not our responsibility to find your evidence for you. Basic debating rules!

(Visit my "Quran Challenge" thread. It deals with this very subject)

How can you tell if the passage could or could not be written by a human?

 

[KWED]

Can you find any proof these are well supported faiths, or just disgruntled individuals with a website and a handful of tag alongs?

Isn't that how all the major religions started out?
What did Baha'ism look like in the mid 1800s? Hmm?
Exactly!

Even after all this time it still amazes me how apologists cannot seem to understand how their arguments against other religions work equally against their own beliefs.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So you are seriously claiming that a human can live for 1000 years?
And if your response is "But is was through magic", then you need to show that this magic actually exists. If your response is along he lines of "well Noah lived for 1000 years", we can dismiss your entire position as obvious nonsense.

When did I claim that Noah physically lived 1000 years?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Already doubting this. Sounds too much like "A priest, a rabbi and an imam walk into a bar..."

Obvious bovine faeces. The clerics of religions are never "satisfied" with the dogmatic claims of other religions. No Priest, rabbi or imam worth his salt would simply accept an argument that refuted their own beliefs. This is clearly a fable designed for the faithful.

If He was manifestation of God, He could have given then satisfactory answers. So, your reasons, assumes that Bahaullah was not a Manifestation of God. So, you already made up your mind before even investigating.

 

[Trailblazer]

But to the objective observer they seem like the lives of ordinary people who were trying to present an ideology.

To the objective observer who did not look beyond their nose and do his homework.
Why do you think that God would make it that easy to recognize His Messenger?

“That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

 

[KWED]

Yes people get to choose what is Beautiful.

Regards Tony

So you admit that you were wrong when you stated...
"Yes no doubt, a rose bush does not show its beauty until the rose blooms."
The beauty of a rose is not undoubtedly dependent on its flowers.
You may think I am being pedantic, but I am merely helping you understand the flaws in your logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is called "cognitive dissonance". It is a well established psychological phenomenon. It is no different to the devoted and loving husband being unable to accept that his wife is being unfaithful, even when shown evidence.

cognitive dissonance: the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.
cognitive dissonance - Google Search

I have no cognitive dissonance. I have no inconsistent thoughts or beliefs, I am very consistent.
What I believe is all about the facts, the cold hard facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. No emotions are involved.

Just because you do not interpret those facts the way I do that does not mean I have cognitive dissonance. That is a typical atheist ploy.

 

[KWED]

Did you know Abdul'baha was the first to recognise the Station of his father Baha'u'llah? That was not long after Baha'u'llah was released from the 'Balck Pit'. Some 9 years before Baha'u'llah declared His Mission to humanity.

Regards Tony

Are you really claiming that the recognition of children is somehow a validation of the father's claims?
So presumably you accept Donald Jr's recognition of is father's claims of the "Big Steal" as evidence that the election really was rigged?

As I said, I am merely pointing out the flaws in your arguments.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you referring to god? The supposedly infallible, omniscient, omnipotent being who still can't produce a message that is clear, unambiguous and understandable by all?
I have read science textbooks that do a better job.

No, God is not the teacher, the Messenger of God is the teacher, and He has produced a message that is unambiguous and understandable....

There is no reason why the message would be understandable by ALL. That has never been the case when the message was first delivered or for a long time after that, but as time goes on more and more people will understand it. It is early in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[KWED]

The Bible is also the primary reason why more people have not recognized Baha'u'llah and the Bible is the primary reason there are atheists...
Think about it. [/quote The Bible is a major reason why I dismiss the existence of the Christian god. The Quran, the Islamic god. The Vedas, the Hindu gods, the writings of Bahaullah, the Baha'i god, etc.

On their own, claims that there is some non-specific, non-interventionist supernatural power are difficult to refute. However, once people start making specific claims about their gods, the job becomes oh so much easier!

Personally, I think it is time to put the Bible on the shelf because we have a new Revelation from God and as long as people are stuck in the past they will never move forward. That is just logic.

Or in other words - "My magic is more real than your magic - even though there is no evidence for either".

“…… To this testify the records of the sacred books. Were the details to be mentioned, this epistle would swell into a book. Moreover, it is not Our wish to relate the stories of the days that are past. God is Our witness that what We even now mention is due solely to Our tender affection for thee, that haply the poor of the earth may attain the shores of the sea of wealth, the ignorant be led unto the ocean of divine knowledge, and they that thirst for understanding partake of the Salsabíl of divine wisdom. Otherwise, this servant regardeth the consideration of such records a grave mistake and a grievous transgression.”

The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 63

Remember you aren't allowed to use other people's opinions to support your beliefs.

 

[KWED]

No, God is not the teacher, the Messenger of God is the teacher, and He has produced a message that is unambiguous and understandable....

Well, that is obvious nonsense. The majority of people who have read the message of god's perfect messenger reject it. If it was as you claim, they would immediately see the obvious truth.
Now, if you claim that their existing beliefs cloud their judgement - why does that principle not apply to you?

There is no reason why the message would be understandable by ALL.

Of course there is! It was revealed by an omniscient, omnipotent god. He can do anything. And remember he wants everyone to hear and understand his message. So why didn't he reveal it in a way that could be understood and accepted by all - because he could have done if he had wanted to.

That has never been the case when the message was first delivered or for a long time after that, but as time goes on more and more people will understand it. It is early in the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

Are you really invoking the argument ad pop? Remember that every single major religion (that you claim are wrong) all started as tiny minorities.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But those views will always cause division until people recognize Baha'u'llah as the Representative of God among men who unsealed the Book and explained its true meanings.

Thus you have offered it contains meaning, a sure spiritual guide, that is the same in every dispensation given by God, we need spiritual understanding. This is what Jesus as Christ offered the Jews. Jesus said if you knew Moses you would believe me, because Moses wrote about Jesus the Christ.

It was not offered by Christ, that the Scriptures were not a sure spiritual guide, it was offered they were a guide to recognition of Christ.

Baha'u'llah also offered the same.

I see we are guilty of not applying that in our posts on RF. It is our own views that create the division, not the Bible.

That's really all I have to say Susan. I have never seen the Bible as the issue, I see it as God given scripture. A sure spiritual guide.

If you see it differently, that's OK, but consider that is in itself division, that we have created.

Abdu'l-Baha was not one to criticize anyone or anything....
I do not go by what Abdu'l-Baha said because it s obvious that he was pandering to the Christians

I will also reply to this, as Baha'u'llah offered about Abdul'baha,

"O people of the world! When the Mystic Dove will have winged its flight from its Sanctuary of Praise and sought its far-off goal, its hidden habitation, refer ye whatsoever ye understand not in the Book to Him Who hath branched from this mighty Stock." (Abdul'baha)

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, paragraph 174

This is the Tablet of the Branch about how we are to embrace Abdu'l-Baha.

"There hath branched from the Sadratu’l-Muntahá this sacred and glorious Being, this Branch of Holiness; well is it with him that hath sought His shelter and abideth beneath His shadow. Verily the Limb of the Law of God hath sprung forth from this Root which God hath firmly implanted in the Ground of His Will, and Whose Branch hath been so uplifted as to encompass the whole of creation. Magnified be He, therefore, for this sublime, this blessed, this mighty, this exalted Handiwork!… A Word hath, as a token of Our grace, gone forth from the Most Great Tablet—a Word which God hath adorned with the ornament of His own Self, and made it sovereign over the earth and all that is therein, and a sign of His greatness and power among its people …Render thanks unto God, O people, for His appearance; for verily He is the most great Favor unto you, the most perfect bounty upon you; and through Him every mouldering bone is quickened. Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants… We have sent Him down in the form of a human temple. Blest and sanctified be God Who createth whatsoever He willeth through His inviolable, His infallible decree. They who deprive themselves of the shadow of the Branch, are lost in the wilderness of error, are consumed by the heat of worldly desires, and are of those who will assuredly perish."

Bahá’u’lláh - Tablet of the Branch cited in The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh, paragraph 78

That is our choice Susan, I see we need to read that Tablet with all our heart and soul, as the closing lines are fair warning.

Lots of Love to you and all.

Regards Tony

 

[KWED]

How can you tell if the passage could or could not be written by a human?

Easy. If it contains information or ideas that are or have been, or could possibly be the products of the human mind - then it could have been produced by humans.
It is impossible to show that a piece of literature could not have been produced by the human mind.

How about you present a passage that could not have been produced by a human author, if you think such a concept is rational?

 

[KWED]

If He was manifestation of God, He could have given then satisfactory answers. So, your reasons, assumes that Bahaullah was not a Manifestation of God. So, you already made up your mind before even investigating.

Unless you can reproduce the conversation for examination, it is merely a claim, and as such, my rational explanation holds sway.

 

[Trailblazer]

And also god's, by all accounts.

Why do you think that?

Debate is an adversarial process, by definition. If you do not want people to assess and address your claims, then perhaps a debate forum is the wrong environment for you?

Debate does not have to be adversarial, people make it adversarial by being egotistical and insisting others are wrong and they are right.

He was not assessing or addressing my claims. All he ever does is point out what he believes are my logical errors. It is not about the subject at hand, it is about me personally.

As a matter of interest, what makes you think your god is always right? Because he tells you? Because you assume it? Because someone told you?
It can't be an evidential claim because there is nothing about the content of god's pronouncements that suggests he must always be right.

It is revealed in Scripture that God is infallible and that means God can never make any mistakes so God is always right. If God could be wrong then God would not be God, He would be a man.

“Tear asunder, in My Name, the veils that have grievously blinded your vision, and, through the power born of your belief in the unity of God, scatter the idols of vain imitation. Enter, then, the holy paradise of the good-pleasure of the All-Merciful. Sanctify your souls from whatsoever is not of God, and taste ye the sweetness of rest within the pale of His vast and mighty Revelation, and beneath the shadow of His supreme and infallible authority.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

 

[KWED]

To the objective observer who did not look beyond their nose and do his homework.
Why do you think that God would make it that easy to recognize His Messenger?

Why wouldn't he?
What has he got to hide?

“That the Manifestations of Divine justice, the Day Springs of heavenly grace, have when they appeared amongst men always been destitute of all earthly dominion and shorn of the means of worldly ascendancy, should be attributed to this same principle of separation and distinction which animateth the Divine Purpose.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

Explain exactly what that means, in the context of god deliberately hiding his existence from the vast majority of people.
{Spoiler: you can't)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But to the objective observer they seem like the lives of ordinary people who were trying to present an ideology. History is full of similar examples. There is literally nothing about their lives that suggests they were in contact with a god, for whom no evidence nor rational argument exists.

If that is really the sum total of your "evidence" for the truth of the Baha'i faith, then you have fallen at the first hurdle. (Which we had already established some while past)

What evidence has been presented an looked at?

As I see you already have a verdict. You are dismissed from jury duty.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Isn't that how all the major religions started out?
What did Baha'ism look like in the mid 1800s? Hmm?
Exactly!

Even after all this time it still amazes me how apologists cannot seem to understand how their arguments against other religions work equally against their own beliefs.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts

So you have not looked into when they started and as to the size of their influence, yet again I see you offer a verdict.

Regards Tony