Are Baha’u’llah’s prophecies coming true?

[KWED]

cognitive dissonance: the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change.
cognitive dissonance - Google Search

I have no cognitive dissonance. I have no inconsistent thoughts or beliefs, I am very consistent.
What I believe is all about the facts, the cold hard facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. No emotions are involved.

Just because you do not interpret those facts the way I do that does not mean I have cognitive dissonance. That is a typical atheist ploy.

Oh, this is hilarious!
You have repeatedly been shown to hold inconsistent beliefs, by several different people. You have even admitted it yourself on occasion.
It is perfectly clear that you simply respond with a negative response to every question or point rather than having a constant position that you defend.
You make claims about knowledge and facts yet have also admitted that you only have belief and cannot prove your position nor present any actual evidence.

You present a classic example of cognitive dissonance and perhaps even Dunning Kruger syndrome.
Of course, both the above conditions mean that you are completely unable to recognise that you display those conditions.
(Note: this is not a personal attack but merely an objective assessment based on observation)

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you really claiming that the recognition of children is somehow a validation of the father's claims?
So presumably you accept Donald Jr's recognition of is father's claims of the "Big Steal" as evidence that the election really was rigged?

As I said, I am merely pointing out the flaws in your arguments.

You are looking at these topics in your frame of reference. Thus what is imputed in your replies does not reflect what I am offering.

I choose to not offer more than that.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

What constitutes the rest of the "evidence"?

Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

That is just a bare assertion with nothing to support it. All the evidence contradicts your claim.

What evidence contradicts my claim? Why can't new people who are born recognize Baha'u'llah?

You just claimed that Christ had come to save us. Now you are saying his message is false.
As usual, you are contradicting yourself, left, right and centre.

There is no contradiction. Jesus did come to save us but Baha'is have a different understanding from Christians regarding what we were saved from and what it means to be saved.

Since Baha’is do not believe in original sin, there was no penalty to pay. Therein lies the difference between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith beliefs. Since we all have a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature (sinful nature) Jesus saved us from our lower material nature by giving us His teachings that, if followed, free us from the chains of bondage to our physical nature and the material world. The cross sacrifice was a symbol of detachment and self-denial, the example we are to follow. The remission of sins is the remission of our sinful nature that intervenes between us and God:

So if an ideology is unique, it necessarily is true? Are you sure?

Did I say that it is necessarily true? No, I did not say that.
I said that no other religion teaches what the Baha'i Faith teaches because that is what we were discussing.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Are you really claiming that the recognition of children is somehow a validation of the father's claims?
So presumably you accept Donald Jr's recognition of is father's claims of the "Big Steal" as evidence that the election really was rigged?

As I said, I am merely pointing out the flaws in your arguments.

I decided to offer what Baha'u'llah said about his Son.

"There hath branched from the Sadratu’l-Muntahá this sacred and glorious Being, this Branch of Holiness; well is it with him that hath sought His shelter and abideth beneath His shadow. Verily the Limb of the Law of God hath sprung forth from this Root which God hath firmly implanted in the Ground of His Will, and Whose Branch hath been so uplifted as to encompass the whole of creation. Magnified be He, therefore, for this sublime, this blessed, this mighty, this exalted Handiwork!… A Word hath, as a token of Our grace, gone forth from the Most Great Tablet—a Word which God hath adorned with the ornament of His own Self, and made it sovereign over the earth and all that is therein, and a sign of His greatness and power among its people …Render thanks unto God, O people, for His appearance; for verily He is the most great Favor unto you, the most perfect bounty upon you; and through Him every mouldering bone is quickened. Whoso turneth towards Him hath turned towards God, and whoso turneth away from Him hath turned away from My beauty, hath repudiated My Proof, and transgressed against Me. He is the Trust of God amongst you, His charge within you, His manifestation unto you and His appearance among His favored servants… We have sent Him down in the form of a human temple. Blest and sanctified be God Who createth whatsoever He willeth through His inviolable, His infallible decree. They who deprive themselves of the shadow of the Branch, are lost in the wilderness of error, are consumed by the heat of worldly desires, and are of those who will assuredly perish."

Bahá’u’lláh - Tablet of the Branch cited in The Dispensation of Bahá’u’lláh, paragraph 78

I offer that as this is a Unique relationship, a relationship that no other faith has seen unfold in this world to date.

Abdul'baha offered that he interpreted all that Baha'u'llah had offered about him, was naught but the meaning of his name, which means 'Servant of Baha'.

Abdul'baha was the perfect embodiment of all Baha'i Ideals and goals, that is to serve all humanity in preference to one's own self.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Easy. If it contains information or ideas that are or have been, or could possibly be the products of the human mind - then it could have been produced by humans.
It is impossible to show that a piece of literature could not have been produced by the human mind.

How about you present a passage that could not have been produced by a human author, if you think such a concept is rational?

I know, but how do you recognize that the ideas could not possibly produced by human mind?
I am not saying that, it is not possible to recognize word of God from word of human. But why do you think anyone is able to recognize and distinguish between word of God and human?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Unless you can reproduce the conversation for examination, it is merely a claim, and as such, my rational explanation holds sway.

It is not my job to prove it to you. All I can do, is put some info for you as single evidences. It is like dots. You need to connect the dots to see the the whole picture.
Also, this thread is not about proving divinity. It was about the particular prophecies in the OP.

 

[Trailblazer]

How can you tell if the passage could or could not be written by a human?

That is a subjective determination, it cannot be proven.

 

[Sheldon]

There are objective evidences.

Pick the best you have and post it then please.

First, please say what kind of evidence are you looking for,

 

[Trailblazer]

Isn't that how all the major religions started out?

No, the tag-alongs came later.

What did Baha'ism look like in the mid 1800s? Hmm?
Exactly!

I see you have done your homework. Those were schisms, not tag-alongs.

Even after all this time it still amazes me how apologists cannot seem to understand how their arguments against other religions work equally against their own beliefs.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” - Stephen Roberts

Even after all this time it still amazes me how atheists cannot seem to understand that the Baha'i Faith does not dismiss other religions. We believe there is only one true God who revealed all the religions. The fact that men mucked up the older religion is another matter.

 

[Trailblazer]

On their own, claims that there is some non-specific, non-interventionist supernatural power are difficult to refute. However, once people start making specific claims about their gods, the job becomes oh so much easier!

How so? What can you refute?

Remember you aren't allowed to use other people's opinions to support your beliefs.

Scripture is not 'other people's opinions' since a Manifestation is God is not 'other people.'
The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man.
I thought we covered this before, but maybe that was someone else I posted it to.

A Manifestation of God is not an ordinary man. Manifestations of God possess two stations: one is the physical station pertaining to the world of matter, and the other is the spiritual station, born of the substance of God. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality. It is because they possess both a human and a divine station that they can act as *mediators* between God and man.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting God’s Self, God’s Beauty, God’s Might and Glory.

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It seems that you conveniently ignore some part of my post, and just quoted a part of it. How would that be a fair discussion?
If you are serious and wants to get somewhere with this, it is important to communicate completely

 

[Sheldon]

It seems that you conveniently ignore some part of my post, and just quoted a part of it. How would that be a fair discussion?
If you are serious and wants to get somewhere with this, it is important to communicate completely

1. You said you had objective evidences.

2. I asked you to demonstrate the best you had.

It isn't possible to be any clearer than that. Just demonstrate the best piece of objective evidence you think you have for any deity, as you claimed you could.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, that is obvious nonsense. The majority of people who have read the message of god's perfect messenger reject it. If it was as you claim, they would immediately see the obvious truth.
Now, if you claim that their existing beliefs cloud their judgement - why does that principle not apply to you?

Why would people immediately see it even if it was the obvious truth? Do you know anything about human nature?

I do claim that peoples' existing beliefs and non-beliefs cloud their judgment. That does not apply to me because I already believe that the older religions are true religions. Besides, the Baha'i Faith is the latest religion that was revealed by God and it would be completely illogical for me to embrace a religion that is older than dirt.

Below are the seven reasons why more people have not recognized Baha’u’llah, yet.
The primary reason is #4.

1. Many people have never heard of the Baha’i Faith, so they do not know there is something to look for. It is the responsibility of the Baha’is to get the message out, so if that is not happening, the Baha’is are to blame. However, there are so few Baha’is and they are busy building the New World Order, and there is only so much time, so they can only do so much.

2. But even after people know about the Baha’i Faith, most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

3. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

4. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

5. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

6. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion either do not believe that God communicates via Messengers or they find fault with the Messenger, Baha’u’llah.

7. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws because some laws require them to give things up that they like doing.

Of course there is! It was revealed by an omniscient, omnipotent god. He can do anything. And remember he wants everyone to hear and understand his message. So why didn't he reveal it in a way that could be understood and accepted by all - because he could have done if he had wanted to..

I said: "There is no reason why the message would be understandable by ALL."
The fact that God is omniscient and omnipotent and can do anything is COMPLETELY MOOT.
An omnipotent God only does what God chooses to do, period.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

God did not downgrade His message so it could be understood by all because that is not what God chose to do.

God does not need anyone to get His message, let alone everyone, because God has no needs, so why would God downgrade His message so everyone would understand it?

Are you really invoking the argument ad pop? Remember that every single major religion (that you claim are wrong) all started as tiny minorities.

No, I am invoking the converse of ad pop. The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

You are correct. Every religion started out as tiny minorities so why would the Baha'i Faith be any different?

 

[Trailblazer]

Easy. If it contains information or ideas that are or have been, or could possibly be the products of the human mind - then it could have been produced by humans.
It is impossible to show that a piece of literature could not have been produced by the human mind.

You are right, it cannot be shown, but so what?
It is a subjective call as to whether what Baha'u'llah wrote could have been produced by a man who was not a Messenger of God. It can never be proven, but that does not mean Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God since proof is not what makes Him a Messenger of God. Proof is just what atheists want, but we don't always get what we want.

 

[CG Didymus]

In our current time, what is the population of Bahais, and those others that you think are other sects? Do you know?

If you want to say that none of them have enough members to qualify as a sect, that's fine. But still, these were members of the family and top leaders that broke away. It happened in the past and could happen again.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is not the Baha'i view. We turn to the Writings to find out about the Bible.

"THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God."
‘Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

The guidance is that we can not know if it is word for word accurate, but that does not matter, it is a sure spiritual guide.

Baha'u'llah made it clear in the Kitab-i-iqan that God left the Bible as a sure spiritual guide. That was the advice Baha'u'llah offered to all Muslims and all peoples of all Faiths.

The Bible is WOW.

Regards Tony

If the Bible isn't 100% true, then it's not "wow". At its worst, it might be nothing but myth and legend. We can find all kinds of spiritual teachings in all kinds of religious writings that some people find useful and believable. But you can't say the Bible is great because it says to love your neighbor in one verse and then has God sending his people out to kill their neighbors in another one.

Oh, and I looked at the very beginning of the Kitab-i-iqan and is it a "sure" guide? Were Hud and Salih real people and prophets or maybe even manifestations? They aren't listed in any of the lists of manifestations that I've seen. Are there places where it is clarified if Baha'u'llah is saying they are manifestations or not?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why wouldn't he?
What has he got to hide?

Why would God make it easy to recognize His Messenger? This has nothing to do with hiding.

Baha'u'llah explained why it is not easy.

If God wanted to make everyone into a believer everyone would be a believer, since an omnipotent deity can make everyone into a believer. This is logic 101. It is also what Baha'u'llah wrote.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence. “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 71

In the context of the passage above, If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people means that God could have made all people believers, but IF God has pleased, implies that God did not want to make all people into believers, verified by the fact that all men are not believers. The passage goes on to say why God didn’t want to make us believers... In short, God wants us to make an effort and become believers by our own efforts (by virtue of their own innate powers).

According to this passage, God wants everyone to search for Him and determine if He exists by using their own innate intelligence and using their free will to make the decision to believe. God wants those who are sincere and truly search for Him to believe in Him. God wants to distinguish those people from the others who are not sincere, those who are unwilling to put forth any effort.

If God proved to everyone that He exists then it would not be possible to distinguish between people and how much they really care about believing in Him. In short, God wants everyone to prove their worthiness.

Explain exactly what that means, in the context of god deliberately hiding his existence from the vast majority of people.
{Spoiler: you can't)

Sure I can. I have explained it to atheists umpteen million times.

God has not hidden His existence from anyone, since God has revealed Himself through Messengers since the beginning of human history, as evidenced by the fact that 84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.

God is known to 93% of the world population, since only 7% of the world population are atheists.
The fact that these people have different religions and different conceptions of God is moot. Of course they do, since God has revealed different religions in every new age.

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).
Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

Can you find any proof these are well supported faiths, or just disgruntled individuals with a website and a handful of tag alongs?

If they are a viable breakaway, that should be easy to find.

Consider Baha'u'llah offered all cut off branches will eventually die and offered the metaphor of how that works.

if you are a gardener, you will know that branches that are hewn from a tree, die at different rates, in regards to the size of the limb removed, and the conditions it is removed in.

Prophecy contains the fact that there will be branches that need to be removed, but the prophecy says they will amount to nothing, thay will never have any lasting influence over the hearts of mankind.

Regards Tony

Which Christian Church is the true Church and is connected to Jesus and to God? For a long time, the Roman Church had the power to stop anybody that opposed them. But at the time of the Reformation, what was true about their beliefs and doctrines? And even if you think they had some truth, who had more NT based truth? The Protestants or the Catholics? But, going by Baha'i beliefs, both have some important doctrines that Baha'is believe are false. Like Jesus being God. And also, I'm sure some Protestants sects aren't very big. So, they can be very wrong and very small, but they are still a sect.

And I'm sure, to you, these break away groups of Baha'is are totally wrong, and they don't have very many followers, but they still are a sect, aren't they?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is not my job to prove it to you. All I can do, is put some info for you as single evidences. It is like dots. You need to connect the dots to see the the whole picture.
Also, this thread is not about proving divinity. It was about the particular prophecies in the OP.

@KWED. There are many of these dots.

There are recorded examples of the Bab, Baha'u'llah and they passed the ability on the Abdul'baha, how they show the human mind can be strengthened via a connection to the Holy Spirit.

I will quote one such eyewitness account in regards to Abdul'baha.

"....When He found some free time and a private setting, He would take up the pen and begin to write. Yet He did not wish to abandon the pilgrims to themselves, or to leave them in a state of expectation, anticipation and weariness, and so when He brought out batches of incoming letter from His Pocket and began to read them and write -replies , also remembered the pilgrims. Some of them might have been the originators of some of the letters, while a number of others might have been the couriers of these letters on behalf of other friends from various Eastern countries. In any case when the Pen of 'Abdu'l-Bahá was in motion and no guest were in attendance, it was a good time for them to come in sit down and be enraptured by the pleasure of nearness to Him. As soon as they had been summoned and entered His presence they were greeted by His loving words, "Welcome, welcome, welcome". But while His words of loving greeting flowed uninterruptedly His pen was in motion all the time. Sometimes He would enunciate the revealed words as He wrote them; at other times, silence dominated the room. Sometimes He would break the silence and urge the friends, "Go ahead and talk, I can hear you." Of course, they were helpless to utter a word, utterly overwhelmed and bedazzled as they were by that magical, wondrous countenance. However, the arrival of uninvited guests usually broke the wall of silence. Whether an Arab Shaykh or an Ottoman dignitary, one or several would arrive. Now the proper courtesies would be observed according to custom and as appropriate to the rank of the arriving guest. After a formal exchange of greetings, the pen would recommence its dash across the paper while the words flowed from His lips. If no one spoke, He would address the Arabs in Arabic, "O Shaykh, how are you or if the guests were Turks and remained quiet out of respect, He, with that radiant face and enchanting smile, would repeatedly urge them in Turkish to open the conversation. And if the silence persisted and no other sound save the scratching of the pen could be heard, He would repeat His request in Turkish so that perhaps someone would break the silence; as others gave their attention to the conversation, 'Abdu'l-Bahá too could participate in it.

Of course, such sessions did not always pass peacefully. At times, while 'Abdu'l-Bahá was absorbed in His work, certain individuals would come in and bring up various topics for discussion; these sometimes led to arguments, shouting and even altercation. Above all the clamour and uproar, undisturbed, ,'Abdu'l-Bahá's pen continued its pace across the paper.

Lava Pasha was a case in point. He used to enter the Master's house through the back yard, shouting, "Hey, hey, Isma'il Aqa! Make me a delicious sweet cup of coffee". With his military boots and spurs clanking, he would climb the stairs rapidly and enter the room. Tall and lean, once inside he would bow before the Master and take 'Abdu'l-Bahá's hand in his with the intention of kissing it. When 'Abdu'l-Bahá refused the gesture by withdrawing His hand, Lava Pasha would humbly kiss his own fingertips as a sign of reverence and devotion; then he would immediately sit down and engage in conversation. Before long his ringing laughter would fill the room. Then without notice he would introduce a topic and enter into a heated debate, invariably asking 'Abdu'l-Bahá to endorse his views. During all this time the flow of divine revelation was neither interrupted nor suspended, until the work at hand was completed and Isma'il Aqa's sweet coffee was about to be served."

Memories of Nine Years in Akka

Some may not find these dots of individual intensity, put them together and we get a fuller picture.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh, this is hilarious!
You have repeatedly been shown to hold inconsistent beliefs, by several different people. You have even admitted it yourself on occasion.

No, that has never been shown. What has been shown is that I have never wavered from my belief in Baha'u'llah. The fact that I change my mind on other things only shows that I get new ideas because I am always thinking and open to new thoughts and ideas.

It is perfectly clear that you simply respond with a negative response to every question or point rather than having a constant position that you defend.

It is perfectly clear that I have a constant position that I defend as per my unflinching belief in Baha'u'llah.

You make claims about knowledge and facts yet have also admitted that you only have belief and cannot prove your position nor present any actual evidence.

I say I have knowledge and facts about the Baha'i Faith because I do. I say I have actual evidence because I do. I say I cannot prove what I believe to anyone else because I can't and that is not my job. If people want to believe they are responsible to investigate for themselves and prove it to themselves.

You present a classic example of cognitive dissonance and perhaps even Dunning Kruger syndrome.

I have no cognitive dissonance as per the definition that I posted. The term cognitive dissonance is used to describe the mental discomfort that results from holding two conflicting beliefs, values, or attitudes. I am in no conflict over what I believe.

I have been to myriad psychologists and counselors and they never diagnosed me as having cognitive dissonance. If I had cognitive dissonance they would have recommended cognitive therapy, but they never did. In fact, they turn me away because they say I am so self-aware and understand my issues so well that I do not need counseling.