Are Barack Obama And Donald Trump On The Hook For Murder?

[Kid Dynamite]

I believe it was Obama that gave the orders to hunt down and kill Osama bin Laden, and Trump the same for Qasem Soleimani. They were without a doubt very bad men but it says in the bible "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I assume God means murder. That being the case, does that mean the two will be held responsible by God for the killings however justified it may have seemed to them?

 

[ChristineM]

Depends on the bible, could be Thou shalt not kill, You shall not murder or Do not murder. Translation from the Hebrew is You shall not murder.

And according to the OT the abrahamic god did plenty of killing so I'm guessing Obama and Trump have clear consciences on that score

 

[Kid Dynamite]

Depends on the bible, could be Thou shalt not kill, You shall not murder or Do not murder. Translation from the Hebrew is You shall not murder.

And according to the OT the abrahamic god did plenty of killing so I'm guessing Obama and Trump have clear consciences on that score

Hello ChristineM

It's just that God answers to nobody and He seemed pretty clear about not killing folks in the Ten Commandments is all. It's my belief that we are humans and have limited understanding. Maybe that's why Him being an "Abrahamic God" as you say, who did plenty of killing maybe means that Obama and Trump think they may be in the clear? I can't see how though.

 

[ChristineM]

Hello ChristineM

It's just that God answers to nobody and He seemed pretty clear about not killing folks in the Ten Commandments is all. It's my belief that we are humans and have limited understanding. Maybe that's why Him being an "Abrahamic God" as you say, who did plenty of killing maybe means that Obama and Trump think they may be in the clear? I can't see how though.

It's a poor translation, it should read You shall not murder

Actually I'm atheist and the theology of it zooms over my head but I've seen plenty of argument about the interpretations of kill and murder in relation to Christianity.

 

[Kid Dynamite]

It's a poor translation, it should read You shall not murder

Actually I'm atheist and the theology of it zooms over my head but I've seen plenty of argument about the interpretations of kill and murder in relation to Christianity.

You're an atheist? Well, I may not agree with your beliefs but I respect your right to them. You won't see me preaching that you are going to Hell and all of that. I like to think that I'm a pretty objective guy.

 

[McBell]

I believe it was Obama that gave the orders to hunt down and kill Osama bin Laden, and Trump the same for Qasem Soleimani. They were without a doubt very bad men but it says in the bible "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I assume God means murder. That being the case, does that mean the two will be held responsible by God for the killings however justified it may have seemed to them?

Murder is an unlawful killing.
What is it that was unlawful for the wanted dead or alive orders?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You're an atheist? Well, I may not agree with your beliefs but I respect your right to them. You won't see me preaching that you are going to Hell and all of that. I like to think that I'm a pretty objective guy.

And atheists will point out that you will be going to the same place as they are. Just something to remember that even when one tries to do so politely that it is not nice to threaten people.

 

[ChristineM]

You're an atheist? Well, I may not agree with your beliefs but I respect your right to them. You won't see me preaching that you are going to Hell and all of that. I like to think that I'm a pretty objective guy.

Im glad, the "your going to hell" mantra tells me a lot about the person's personality. You pass ;-)

 

[Kid Dynamite]

Murder is an unlawful killing.
What is it that was unlawful for the wanted dead or alive orders?

Hi McBell

I know that I'm not as advanced in biblical knowledge as most of you, but it says pretty clearly: "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I don't see any room for interpretation here. I don't understand why there should be any debate. Are you saying that God should have chosen His words better?

 

[Kid Dynamite]

Im glad, the "your going to hell" mantra tells me a lot about the person's personality. You pass ;-)

I just meant that I'm not the type of Christian that's going to pass judgement on you because your beliefs differ from mine.

 

[McBell]

Hi McBell

I know that I'm not as advanced in biblical knowledge as most of you, but it says pretty clearly: "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I don't see any room for interpretation here. I don't understand why there should be any debate. Are you saying that God should have chosen His words better?

No room for interpretation?

From Strong's:

H7523​

רָצַח​

râtsach​

raw-tsakh'​

A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... but it says in the bible "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I assume God means murder.

What, in your opinion, is the difference?

 

[McBell]

Hi McBell

I know that I'm not as advanced in biblical knowledge as most of you, but it says pretty clearly: "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I don't see any room for interpretation here. I don't understand why there should be any debate. Are you saying that God should have chosen His words better?

You seem to be confused.
From your OP:

but it says in the bible "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I assume God means murder. Post #1​

How is this not an interpretation?

 

[Kid Dynamite]

What, in your opinion, is the difference?

Well if your life was in danger and you defended yourself by killing the aggressor in the heat of the moment, maybe God would understand and have leniency.

 

[Kid Dynamite]

You seem to be confused.
From your OP:

but it says in the bible "Thou Shalt Not Kill." I assume God means murder. Post #1​

How is this not an interpretation?

I meant the act itself.

 

[McBell]

I meant the act itself.

The act...
Of killing?
Of Murder?
Of slaying?
Of dashing to pieces?

All of which the word used can be translated into:

H7523​

רָצַח​

râtsach​

raw-tsakh'​

A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).​

 

[Kid Dynamite]

I'm glad I brought this up.

 

[Wirey]

Well if your life was in danger and you defended yourself by killing the aggressor in the heat of the moment, maybe God would understand and have leniency.

Sorry, but leniency? There are degrees of sin? The commandment doesn't read "Thou shalt not kill, unless you think you have a good reason." Everyone who bothers to kill someone thinks they have a good reason. Either it's a commandment, or it's not. There's no "Do not covet your neighbour's wife, unless she's super hot" proviso.

 

[Kid Dynamite]

Sorry, but leniency? There are degrees of sin? The commandment doesn't read "Thou shalt not kill, unless you think you have a good reason." Everyone who bothers to kill someone thinks they have a good reason. Either it's a commandment, or it's not. There's no "Do not covet your neighbour's wife, unless she's super hot" proviso.

That's why I asked this question. I know that it says not to kill. Plain and simple. So are Obama and Trump on the hook for murder regardless of their reasons.

 

[McBell]

I'm glad I brought this up.

From the examples provided below, the claim "thou shalt not kill" does not mean that all killing is wrong.

Spoiler: Biblical Death Penalty reasons

Striking, or even reviling, a parent. (Exodus 21:15,17)

Blasphemy. (Leviticus 24:14,16,23)

Sabbath-breaking. (Exodus 31:14; 35:2; Numbers 15:32-36)

Witchcraft, and false pretension to prophecy. (Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27; 13:5; 18:20)

Adultery. (Leviticus 20:10; 22:22)

Unchastity. (Leviticus 21:9; 22:21,23)

Rape. (22:25)

Incestuous and unnatural connections. (Exodus 22:19; Leviticus 20:11,14,16)

Manstealing. (Exodus 21:16; 24:7)

Idolatry, actual or virtual, in any shape. (Leviticus 20:2; 13:8,10,15; 17:2-7) see Josh 7:1 ... and Josh 22:20 and Numb 25:8

False witness in certain cases. (19:16,19)

Spoiler: Biblical Methods of the Death Penalty

Stoning (Exodus 17:4; Luke 20:6; John 10:31; Acts 14:5; 13:9; Acts 7:58)

Hanging (Numbers 25:4; 2 Samuel 21:6,9)

Burning (Genesis 38:24; Leviticus 21:9)

Death by the sword or spear (Exodus 19:13; 32:27; Numbers 25:7; 1 Kings 2:25,34; 2 Chronicles 21:4)

Drowning (2 Samuel 12:31; Proverbs 20:26; Hebrews 11:37)

Pounding in a mortar , or beating to death, (Proverbs 27:22)

Stripes (Deuteronomy 25:3; 2 Corinthians 11:24)

Scourging with thorns (Judges 8:16)

The stocks (Jeremiah 20:2)

passing through fire , (2 Samuel 12:31)

mutilation , (Judges 1:6; 2 Macc. 7:4; 2 Samuel 4:12)

Crucifying (Matthew 20:19; Matthew 27:35)

Beheading (Genesis 40:19; Mark 6:16; Matthew 6:27)

Cutting in pieces (Daniel 2:5; Matthew 24:51)

Sawing asunder (Hebrews 11:37)

Exposing to wild beasts (Daniel 6:16; Daniel 6:24; 1 Corinthians 15:32)

Casting into the sea (Matthew 18:6)