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Are Blood Transfusions Really Life Saving?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm really not funny, ask my kids.:p

Do they just think that you are embarrassing? :D Once they get older and leave home and mature a bit, its surprising how much their parents have learned in the interim.

In the Morning Worship Jehovah Blesses Obedience, Anthony Morris III talks about decrees that come from the slave/GB. That these decrees can also be called decisions. Here is little bit of he says in the video:

"Who really is the faithful and discreet... slave?" Singular, see? "Whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time."

So, this is obvious that this slave is a composite slave. The decisions that are made... by the... Faithful Slave today, are made collectively. So no one man's making these decisions. These decisions, if you want to call them a decree, are made collectively. So, when that direction comes out, to branch committee members, or when it comes out to the... congregations, if you want Jehovah's blessing on you as uh an individual or a family, certainly as a elder or a congregation, it'd be best to just ask Jehovah to help you understand it, but obey, the decision. See, that's the same thing's going to happen today happened in the first century, notice in verse 4 and 5 of Acts 16, asked you to keep your place there, so, when Circuit Overseers visit, and they've brought information from the Faithful Slave, when Branch uh Committee members uh meet to discuss things and go by the guidelines, well what's the result? According to verse 5, then, see, when these are obeyed, then, indeed, you're going to be made firm in the faith. Congregations will increase. Branch territories will increase, day by day. Why? Because as we mentioned beginning, Jehovah blesses obedience. This is a theocracy, ruled by God. Not a collection of manmade decisions. This is governed from heaven.

Decisions, decrees, or dogmas, call them whatever you like, are to be obeyed.

Regardless of what you believe and from whom you derived your beliefs, if you are a worshipper of the Bible's God, you will have followed the direction of men appointed by God to lead his people, both in the OT and the NT. The churches today are no different...they are all led by men. But Jesus said we had to identify the real Christians "by their fruits" or the kinds of people they produce. Those people would be following the commands laid down by Jesus Christ. Having come out of the church system, I can tell you now, that the churches do not follow Christ's teachings in any genuine way. If they want to spill blood in a war, they will justify it. If they want to celebrate pagan festivals, they will justify it .
If they have a choice between the law of God and the laws of men, they will follow man's law every time. When have the churches NOT been a friend of this world? (James 4:4)

Because Jesus framed the identity of the FDS in the form of a question, it appears to be something that will not be easily discernible. (Matthew 24:45-47) Jesus appoints the "slave" to feed the rest of his household in his absence. When he returned, he was to reward them with authority over all his "belongings". We believe we have found our "Faithful and Discreet Slave." and that their direction is the one we should follow. Others are free to find their own.

As we get closer to the end of the system, we will need this guidance more than ever. Just as God's people have always relied on the guidance of men appointed to the task of shepherding them (Moses, Joshua, the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles) so too we have shepherds today who are responsible before God to care for his sheep. (Hebrews 13:17) I for one am very happy under their care
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do they just think that you are embarrassing? :D Once they get older and leave home and mature a bit, its surprising how much their parents have learned in the interim.



Regardless of what you believe and from whom you derived your beliefs, if you are a worshipper of the Bible's God, you will have followed the direction of men appointed by God to lead his people, both in the OT and the NT. The churches today are no different...they are all led by men. But Jesus said we had to identify the real Christians "by their fruits" or the kinds of people they produce. Those people would be following the commands laid down by Jesus Christ. Having come out of the church system, I can tell you now, that the churches do not follow Christ's teachings in any genuine way. If they want to spill blood in a war, they will justify it. If they want to celebrate pagan festivals, they will justify it .
If they have a choice between the law of God and the laws of men, they will follow man's law every time. When have the churches NOT been a friend of this world? (James 4:4)

Because Jesus framed the identity of the FDS in the form of a question, it appears to be something that will not be easily discernible. (Matthew 24:45-47) Jesus appoints the "slave" to feed the rest of his household in his absence. When he returned, he was to reward them with authority over all his "belongings". We believe we have found our "Faithful and Discreet Slave." and that their direction is the one we should follow. Others are free to find their own.

As we get closer to the end of the system, we will need this guidance more than ever. Just as God's people have always relied on the guidance of men appointed to the task of shepherding them (Moses, Joshua, the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles) so too we have shepherds today who are responsible before God to care for his sheep. (Hebrews 13:17) I for one am very happy under their care
Please consider all the people who have loved God to obey Jehovah but never knew any of God's shepherds. Did Jehovah give us Jesus to shepherd us OR NOT? Matthew 18:20 Mark 16:19 Matthew 28:20

Is Jesus your shepherd @Deeje?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Yes please.

This would range from offering simple assistance to any sick or elderly person when we encounter them at the door, such as offering to go to the chemist for medication, helping out with shopping, spending time chatting to lonely elderly people who have little family support...to offering assistance to anyone who showed interest in God's word in any way we can. We don't talk about this except between ourselves because it isn't our primary focus. We do this on a personal needs basis as we encounter a problem that we can help with as individuals. (Like the good Samaritan)

We are dedicated to preaching the best news there is for anyone who hates the suffering and inequality of this world ruled by the devil. (1 John 5:19) The kingdom is the only sure hope we have. Jesus told us to preach it in all the earth and that is exactly what his disciples have been doing for the last hundred years. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

How can we judge who can 'help themselves'? Where are we commanded to make such a judgement? Isn't it possible that God helps people through those who give freely?

We don't judge people on anything except their own behavior. Insincere ones will soon demonstrate their true intentions. I remember offering to help a struggling family in my small country town whom I had been calling on and offering assistance to for some time. (I made clothing for their children, gave the family free haircuts and generally helped them out when I could.) I loaned them my car whilst my husband and I were away for the weekend because their car had broken down and he needed to get parts to fix it.They showed their gratitude by taking a trip to Queensland in my car without telling me. Their children let the cat out of the bag later but only after I noticed that there were several thousand K's added to my odometer. :oops: They moved away not long afterwards to no doubt take advantage of someone else's good nature. Jesus too waited for people to show their real motives. After he had fed the multitudes, they returned and he asked them if they had just come back for the food. (Rice Christians. John 6:25-27)

Thankfully, mine are beyond that stage, but although it is a time for questioning authority and establishing identity, teens are also unwilling to cause distress to a parent they love, and are capable of logic and restraint.
I found it particularly important to give them honest, complete and balanced information on everything they asked; it led to mutual trust and good decisions.

I am facing this now with grandchildren. All mine are low to high teens and as I mentioned, my brother in law drives the school bus and is appalled at how the behavior of the primary school age children is making his job a nightmare. He is dreading them going to high school. He has been doing this work for the last 10 years and has seen a steady decline in their behavior. Parents have lost control because of the laws that now prevent any real discipline. Expelling or suspending kids from school is a holiday, not a punishment.

I don't think vague conspiracy theories are relevant to this thread, although of course it's yours.

The topic has been thoroughly discussed already. Tangents are now inevitable I'm afraid. :confused:

Who, apart from jws, are this 'lot of people'? And whatever is this 'seeming breaking point'?

I sometimes wonder what bubble you live in? o_O The world is caught up in the greatest humanitarian crisis in its history and you haven't noticed? The economies of many once very strong nations are at critical levels and yet everything is OK in your world? Morally and spiritually human lives have "gone to hell in a hand basket" and things are still hunky dory for you? Really? The scourge of drug addiction (now with ice) has reached epidemic levels among people of all ages and the heartbreak is hard to watch as people trash their lives and can never recover. I cannot divorce myself from the suffering I see everywhere. Maybe you can?

I have an elderly mother who is not a JW. She can see very clearly what I have been trying to tell her for years. She now admits that she can see the world heading in a dangerous direction. She also understands that humans cannot promise to fix any of it because the system simply will not allow it. She has joined many other Australians in becoming immune and annoyed by political campaigns. Lies...all lies. We notice too in talking to people at their doors that their concerns are escalating. We have a finger on the public 'pulse' because we talk to them all the time.They tell us what concerns them.

Yes, the concept has been around. But it seems your only problem with it is that it isn't headed by God. I can understand the appeal of the idea, frankly, but doubt even a partial 'world government' has a chance in the foreseeable future.

It will come in by deception. What the world signs up for will not appear to be anything but a way out of a hopeless situation. It will promise freedom and justice..."peace and security"......but will deliver nothing but a loss of every freedom that humans have fought for all these years.

1 Thess 5:1-6:
"Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober."

The laws you reference are not based on the Convention on the Rights of the Child 1989 (CRC), but the processes may well have been modified after the ratification. Basically the premise is that a child of 15+ years will wreak havoc if forced to live where they absolutely don't want to. This may be because of problems with the child (eg substance abuse, rebellion) or the environment (violence, over-controlling, even incest). Or both. This is now treated as 'irreconcilable differences' and as for divorce and settlements, the courts and services try hard for mediation, counselling and a peaceful settlement of differences. Where this is not possible, I think it would be a relief for both the child and family not to be at loggerheads. In the case you mention I find the actions of the 'renegade uncle' hard to fathom.

Once you give children rights with no real responsibility, it is a recipe for disaster.

Now, a suggestion. I cannot see how we can progress the subject of blood transfusions when you will not read any current medical literature on the subject (in case it has been written by apostates; have I understood that rightly?)

Not exactly. I have offered my reasons for why many in the medical profession refuse to budge on a procedure that they have practiced for decades. They are reluctant to admit that they may have actually harmed anyone because the first rule of physicians is "do not harm". It appears as if the patients, in the majority of cases (according to their own numerous studies) survived in spite of the blood transfusions administered to them, rather than because of them. The medical profession has its "dinosaurs" as any nurse in a hospital environment will tell you. They would rather play Russian Roulette with a patients life than admit they might be wrong after all these decades. :( Proud? Stubborn? Arrogant? Sadly, yes. The independent studies speak for themselves. You cant ignore their findings. The medical data prove that what they are saying is true and that they have known about this for years. To continue is just irresponsible.

Could we take our discussion of the other matters (including doctrines) to your thread "How can we identify true worship" where it might fit better?

Sounds good. :)
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You say Jesus can not shepherd you. Correct?

When Eliab, David's oldest brother, heard him speaking with the men, he burned with anger at him and asked, "Why have you come down here? And with whom did you leave those few sheep in the wilderness? I know how conceited you are and how wicked your heart is; you came down only to watch the battle." 1 Samuel 17:28

Did Jesus leave his sheep until they might find your grand and wonderful shepherds?

Whose voice do the sheep listen to? John 10:27

Matthew 17:5
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Does John 10:27 say this? My sheep are not allowed to hear me but I will save them because they will follow who I shall send*

*I won't send them to YOU, but to your children's children's children's children's..........children.

Why not tell us for once something. Why have you exempted all your men from the truth that we are not supposed to rely on humans for our salvation?

How can you be following Jesus at the same time you follow human rulers? Do you say they are not ruling? Sure they are! They have ruled that animal blood and human blood are the same. They have ruled that greedy eating and saving life are the same.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
It will come in by deception. What the world signs up for will not appear to be anything but a way out of a hopeless situation. It will promise freedom and justice..."peace and security"......but will deliver nothing but a loss of every freedom that humans have fought for all these years.

This statement is too vague. It's not just "humans" who fought for freedom, you should have said, "but will deliver nothing but a loss of every freedom that "non JW's have fought for". JW's have fought for nothing! Please don't give credit where credit isn't due.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This statement is too vague. It's not just "humans" who fought for freedom, you should have said, "but will deliver nothing but a loss of every freedom that "non JW's have fought for". JW's have fought for nothing! Please don't give credit where credit isn't due.
Jehovah's Witnesses are saying, "Peace and Security". That is a fact. Why not see the facts?

Just when they are saying peace and security then sudden destruction shall be upon them. What does it mean? Does it mean that they will be destroyed suddenly? JWs do not believe that. They believe that the great tribulation of mass destruction will take awhile. They TEACH it that way.

It means that when anyone is at ease with their own way, believing that they will always be safe, IF danger should appear, they won't be expecting it, thus it is called "sudden".

It has ALWAYS been true.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
We have obtained many freedoms for other minority groups because we have fought through the international courts and won.

Phil1:7:
" It is right for me to think this way about all of you, because I have you in my heart, and you are all partners with me in grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and establishment of the gospel." (Holman)

Paul tried to establish his right to preach through the court system in Rome. We endeavor to do the same. We have gained many victories.
 

Olinda

Member
Not exactly. I have offered my reasons for why many in the medical profession refuse to budge on a procedure that they have practiced for decades. They are reluctant to admit that they may have actually harmed anyone because the first rule of physicians is "do not harm". It appears as if the patients, in the majority of cases (according to their own numerous studies) survived in spite of the blood transfusions administered to them, rather than because of them. The medical profession has its "dinosaurs" as any nurse in a hospital environment will tell you. They would rather play Russian Roulette with a patients life than admit they might be wrong after all these decades. :( Proud? Stubborn? Arrogant? Sadly, yes. The independent studies speak for themselves. You cant ignore their findings. The medical data prove that what they are saying is true and that they have known about this for years. To continue is just irresponsible.

This is in response to my questioning why you will not read current professional journal articles on the pros and cons of transfusing or using fillers. The above 'reasons' are not supported by any research or statistics.

You keep pointing to a 'media release' video, and the three articles to support your contentions. NONE of these offer a balanced perspective, although to Wall Street Journal comes close.

Additionally NONE support the jw position that blood transfusions are never appropriate. If a safer alternative applies in a given situation, fine.

Therefore there's no point in continuing to try to discuss this issue. My replies to the other points of discussion are on the other thread.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
This is in response to my questioning why you will not read current professional journal articles on the pros and cons of transfusing or using fillers. The above 'reasons' are not supported by any research or statistics.

They are supported by hundreds of studies. The cytoscope footage in the video demonstrates why these doctors are concerned. The three units of whole blood were shown to impede the delivery of red cells to the vital organs, whereas the plasma volume expanders were shown to increase delivery of the remaining red cells putting them to work whilst the body repaired itself. JW have demonstrated this to be the case thousands of times despite the dire warnings of medical personnel.

You keep pointing to a 'media release' video, and the three articles to support your contentions. NONE of these offer a balanced perspective, although to Wall Street Journal comes close.

I have already explained why many doctors refuse to acknowledge the warnings of these medicos. It isn't a profession that takes kindly to being corrected.

Additionally NONE support the jw position that blood transfusions are never appropriate. If a safer alternative applies in a given situation, fine.

Many doctors do support our stand and will not use blood at all in our case no matter how dire the predictions. Hospitals dedicated to bloodless medicine are now found all over the world. We have proven that blood is not necessary for saving lives. People who want to take the risk are free to do whatever they like. We will always take the safer option and the record shows that we do better than most because of it.

Therefore there's no point in continuing to try to discuss this issue. .

I do not make decisions for anyone but myself in this issue. But telling the truth after years of the medical profession sticking their heads in the sand is just a matter of presenting the other side of something that was perceived by medical professionals to be wrong. As it turns out, it wasn't wrong after all. Having it backed up by an Australian government website was a bonus.

My replies to the other points of discussion are on the other thread

I have already responded. :)
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Then it should be no problem for you to present one, right?

A Google search will bring you all the information you require.

In one article on blood transfusion medicine in "The Oncologist", under the heading "Product Safety Issues" they spoke about ....."numerous newly emerging and several re-emerging pathogens in the blood pool that are currently not tested for [26].
Those classified with a potential for severe clinical outcome are prions, dengue, and Babesia species. Others that are not considered as threatening but might elevate to
a high priority in the future are chikungunya, St. Louis encephalitis virus, and Leishmania species. An additional eight species are identified as “carrying public and/or regulatory concern” and 35 are on the radar, classified as pathogens of either absent or low risk to contaminate the blood pool, but “subject to modification as circumstances change.”

"In summary, the blood supply remains vulnerable to a long list of infectious agents including viral, bacterial, protozoal, helminthic, spirochetal, rickettsial, and prion pathogens. Furthermore, it is likely that unidentified pathogens exist in the blood pool. Harvey Klein, Chief of the Department of Transfusion Medicine at the National Institutes of Health (NIH) concluded:It is sobering to consider that if a new agent with a long silent carrier state and efficient blood transmission were to appear, the blood component collectors would be scarcely better prepared to interdict a transfusion transmitted epidemic than they were during the early days of AIDS in 1977” [27].
Besides the infectious risks, there is also clerical error, that is, transfusing the wrong blood, referred to as clinical error.
According to the 2009 Serious Hazards of Transfusion Report, 282 reports of “incorrect blood component transfused” were received in the U.K., representing an increase of 7.6% over 2008 [28]."


Please feel free to read about other findings concerning the adverse outcomes of blood transfusions and how far back they go. It has been known for decades that blood was not as safe as they claimed. The article admitted that "these early scientific signals on adverse transfusion outcomes went largely unheard at the time because of distractions with the AIDS crisis. In 1991 and 1992, the transfusion medicine journal of the American Association of Blood Banks alerted clinicians that transfusion-related immunomodulation may increase the risk for postoperative infection [35, 36]. In 1996, Blumberg and Heal made the case that “more patients have died in any one year owing to transfusion immunomodulation’s side effects than died in the entire transfusion transmitted AIDS epidemic,” and led to their later describing it as a “silent epidemic” [37, 38].

http://theoncologist.alphamedpress.org/content/16/suppl_3/3.full.pdf

"The Oncologist" also speaks about the numerous studies on which their conclusions were reached....

This is NOT stuff invented by JW's. There are many similar articles carrying dire warnings about the dangers of transfusion medicine.....but who is listening?
 

David M

Well-Known Member
You forget that blood is a multi-million dollar a year industry. There is a financial incentive to keep it going. (1 Tim 6:10)

Not in every country its not. In some countries people aren't paid for blood donations and the organisations handling the blood are non-profit.

Blood transfusions save lives, there are risks which is why transfusions tend to only happen when they are medically necessary to save lives.

Even the video in the OP admits that transfusions are necessary in some cases. A point reinforced by the quotes you have used.

""We have witnessed a dramatic paradigm shift whereby red cell transfusion once regarded as "one of the greatest advances in medicine" are now considered harmful in some clinical situations."

Some, not all (not even "most").
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Not in every country its not. In some countries people aren't paid for blood donations and the organisations handling the blood are non-profit.

Blood transfusions save lives, there are risks which is why transfusions only happen when they are medically necessary to save lives.

These doctors are saying that up to 88% of them are unnecessary...and that most of them are not life saving at all. Its a difficult mindset to shift apparently.

The cost to the health system has nothing to do with "not for profit" status. Blood is donated free in Australia but I assure you its not free to the patients or their health Insurance providers.

Blood is a multi-million dollar a year business. Have you ever Googled the cost of a single unit of blood? There are reasons to perpetuate this practice that are not motivated by saving lives.....its more about saving hospitals money, whilst lining someone's pockets to the tune of $522-$1183 per unit. How can a pint of blood, donated free, (or at a low payment) result in the staggering cost of a single unit listed in this link? How much are multiple units worth? Who pays for this and who is pocketing the money?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ue-cost-at-522-to-1183-per-unit-89909747.html
 

David M

Well-Known Member
The cost to the health system has nothing to do with "not for profit" status. Blood is donated free in Australia but I assure you its not free to the patients or their health Insurance providers.

It is in my country. Advantage of having a comprehensive public health system that is free at the point of use. No health insurance providers involved.

Blood is a multi-million dollar a year business. Have you ever Googled the cost of a single unit of blood? There are reasons to perpetuate this practice that are not motivated by saving lives.....its more about saving hospitals money, whilst lining someone's pockets to the tune of $522-$1183 per unit. How can a pint of blood, donated free, (or at a low payment) result in the staggering cost of a single unit listed in this link? How much are multiple units worth? Who pays for this and who is pocketing the money?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...ue-cost-at-522-to-1183-per-unit-89909747.html

£123 per unit for the NHS. Of course it costs, every unit has to be collected by trained staff, transported, tested for pathogens and then stored. These things all cost money.

I'll point out that the article you link to is from the US where the cost of medical care is silly, partly because hospitals up the costs because they know that they will usually end up dropping the price when the negotiations with the health insurance company start.
 
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