Are Christians members of Christ's Church?

[ἀλήθεια]

Some churches recognize non-members as Christians and some don't. Is it possible to be a Christian without being a member of Christ's Church? Can a person receive eternal life without ever becoming a member of His Church? I'd like to see how people answer this. What do the various Protestant and non-protestant groups teach?

 

[Katzpur]

Does Christ's Church have a name? If it doesn't, I don't know how a person would be able to identify himself with it? There are certainly Christians who are not regular church-goers, if that's what you mean.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Does Christ's Church have a name? If it doesn't, I don't know how a person would be able to identify himself with it? There are certainly Christians who are not regular church-goers, if that's what you mean.

I'm not asking about a person's attendance record, if that's what you mean. My questions are:

1.

Is it possible to be a Christian without being a member of Christ's Church?

2.

Can a person receive eternal life without ever becoming a member of His Church?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not asking about a person's attendance record, if that's what you mean.

Nope, that's not what I meant.

I asked, "Does Christ's Church have a name?"

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Nope, that's not what I meant.

I asked, "Does Christ's Church have a name?"

That would be an entirely different thread.

 

[no_spoon]

Well my understanding of Catholic teaching (as one data point for your question) is that a belief that non-members of a certain Christian church were not Christians (even if they believed in Christ) would be a form of "Gnosticism" (i.e., creating a secret handshake fraternity as opposed to a church, to put it into non-fancy terms).

And I think Christ himself said as much in John 4:5-42.

 

[Katzpur]

That would be an entirely different thread.

Well, as usual, we have nothing to say to one another, then. Funny, huh, how you can completely derail threads on Mormonism without a second thought, but when I ask for clarification of what you mean in the OP, you blow me off. Have a nice evening, you.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Well, as usual, we have nothing to say to one another, then. Funny, huh, how you can completely derail threads on Mormonism without a second thought, but when I ask for clarification of what you mean in the OP, you blow me off. Have a nice evening, you.

How could I tell that you were asking for clarification instead of just asking another question? I did not blow you off, Katzpur. I will reword my query:

Do all Christians have eternal life and belong to Christ's Church?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Well my understanding of Catholic teaching (as one data point for your question) is that a belief that non-members of a certain Christian church were not Christians (even if they believed in Christ) would be a form of "Gnosticism" (i.e., creating a secret handshake fraternity as opposed to a church, to put it into non-fancy terms).

And I think Christ himself said as much in John 4:5-42.

I may not understand your answer. Are there Christians outside the Roman Catholic church and is it possible to find salvation apart from Catholicism?

 

[Katzpur]

Do all Christians have eternal life and belong to Christ's Church?

I believe there is both an "invisible Church" and an "institutional Church." I'd say that all Christians belong to to the "invisible Church" but that all Christians do not belong to the "institutional Church." I believe that all human beings will be resurrected and will live eternally, whether they are Christians or not. I believe that the phrase "eternal life" refers to "exaltation." I do not believe that all Christians will be exalted.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I believe there is both an "invisible Church" and an "institutional Church." I'd say that all Christians belong to to the "invisible Church" but that all Christians do not belong to the "institutional Church." I believe that all human beings will be resurrected and will live eternally, whether they are Christians or not. I believe that the phrase "eternal life" refers to "exaltation." I do not believe that all Christians will be exalted.

Is it your belief that Christians should belong to two churches? Do you have some scripture regarding that?

Do Christians need to belong to a specific institutional church to have eternal life and outside of that institution are there Christians who will not be exalted nor have eternal life?

 

[no_spoon]

I may not understand your answer. Are there Christians outside the Roman Catholic church and is it possible to find salvation apart from Catholicism?

Well the answer to your two questions are found in answers 818 and 838 respectively of the New Catholic Catechism 2nd Edition (see Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3). Both answers are essentially "Yes" though you may not like the "spin" that the second answer takes. Basically the RCC sees all non-Catholic believers in Christ as being in imperfect connection to the RCC through which Christ's salvation flows. I see this as a legalistic point and believe it still counts as a Yes to your second question.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Well the answer to your two questions are found in answers 818 and 838 respectively of the New Catholic Catechism 2nd Edition (see Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 9 PARAGRAPH 3). Both answers are essentially "Yes" though you may not like the "spin" that the second answer takes. Basically the RCC sees all non-Catholic believers in Christ as being in imperfect connection to the RCC through which Christ's salvation flows. I see this as a legalistic point and believe it still counts as a Yes to your second question.

Would non-Catholics then go to Purgatory and at a later date be admitted to Heaven?

 

[Katzpur]

Is it your belief that Christians should belong to two churches? Do you have some scripture regarding that?

Ideally, the two should be one and the same. Christians should not belong to two institutional Churches, and I don't personally know of any who do. All Christians belong to the body of Christ, though, and that's what I was referring to by the term "invisible Church." It crosses denominational lines.

Do Christians need to belong to a specific institutional church to have eternal life and outside of that institution are there Christians who will not be exalted nor have eternal life?

Ultimately, everyone who has ever lived will need to belong to Christ's Church in order to be exalted. But since the gates of hell will not prevail over that Church, the door to eternal life does not close at death. The gospel will continue to be taught in the Spirit World and it is impossible for us to say how many will accept it there. The distinction between the invisible church and the institutional church will cease to exist at that point, and there will be only "one faith and one baptism."

 

[no_spoon]

Would non-Catholics then go to Purgatory and at a later date be admitted to Heaven?

Well, first off see section 1031 at the site I linked to above (search for Purgatory). The concept is that Purgatory is a final purification of the elect, as distinct from a the punishment of the damned.

Secondly I do NOT believe it follows that just because a Christian is in "imperfect communion" (RCC legalistic term, not my personal view) that they would be more or less likely to end up going to Purgatory. To clarify see section 837 on the page I linked to which describes full members of the RCC but warns that they will not be saved if they do not persevere in the law of charity. Now, of course, this could get into the whole works vs grace debate, but the original question was not how one is saved but whether RCC membership is essential to it, and I think to the Catholic the answer is no.

 

[Katzpur]

I have a question, no_spoon. I'm assuming that your answers so far apply to non-Catholic Christians. What is the Catholic Church's position on non-Christians who lived what most people would consider good lives? I'm thinking of people such as Gandhi.

 

[no_spoon]

What is the Catholic Church's position on non-Christians who lived what most people would consider good lives? I'm thinking of people such as Gandhi.

Well section 848 of the Catechism (see link in my post above) addresses that, but it's definitely more vague than for Christians. Basically it says that God may lead into the faith necessary for salvation those who are ignorant of the Gospel through no fault of their own.

Now, having given the official line I will give my opinion. Since I believe Gandhi was far from ignorant of the Gospel, and since I believe he put into practice far more of Christ's teachings (and at great cost to himself) than most Catholics I know, then I am forced to believe that I am either misunderstanding section 848 or else there better be a loophole. Because if he doesn't end up as part of the elect then something's wrong.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Ideally, the two should be one and the same. Christians should not belong to two institutional Churches, and I don't personally know of any who do. All Christians belong to the body of Christ, though, and that's what I was referring to by the term "invisible Church." It crosses denominational lines.

Do Christian belong to an institutional church and an invisible church? Where is the reference to this in your scripture? The Book of Mormon says: "And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil." (1 Nephi 14:10) How can a Christian belong to two churches if one is the church of the Lamb of God and the other one is the church of the devil? If the body of Christ crosses denominational lines, how can His body not be part of the church of the Lamb of God? Christ is the head of the body.

Ultimately, everyone who has ever lived will need to belong to Christ's Church in order to be exalted. But since the gates of hell will not prevail over that Church, the door to eternal life does not close at death. The gospel will continue to be taught in the Spirit World and it is impossible for us to say how many will accept it there. The distinction between the invisible church and the institutional church will cease to exist at that point, and there will be only "one faith and one baptism."

So which institutional church is Christ's Church? What is the gospel that is going to be preached in the "Spirit World?" Is it your religion? Is Rev. Kowalski who is part of the body of Christ preaching a false gospel? If he is, isn't he working for the church of the devil?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Well, first off see section 1031 at the site I linked to above (search for Purgatory). The concept is that Purgatory is a final purification of the elect, as distinct from a the punishment of the damned.

Secondly I do NOT believe it follows that just because a Christian is in "imperfect communion" (RCC legalistic term, not my personal view) that they would be more or less likely to end up going to Purgatory. To clarify see section 837 on the page I linked to which describes full members of the RCC but warns that they will not be saved if they do not persevere in the law of charity. Now, of course, this could get into the whole works vs grace debate, but the original question was not how one is saved but whether RCC membership is essential to it, and I think to the Catholic the answer is no.

Thank you. I'll look at those in a moment. I thought maybe Purgatory was where Catholics and non-Catholics finish paying for their sins. If I understand you, are you suggesting or saying that both Catholics and non-Catholics can go to Purgatory then? Or do only some of the Catholics go there?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Well section 848 of the Catechism (see link in my post above) addresses that, but it's definitely more vague than for Christians. Basically it says that God may lead into the faith necessary for salvation those who are ignorant of the Gospel through no fault of their own.

Now, having given the official line I will give my opinion. Since I believe Gandhi was far from ignorant of the Gospel, and since I believe he put into practice far more of Christ's teachings (and at great cost to himself) than most Catholics I know, then I am forced to believe that I am either misunderstanding section 848 or else there better be a loophole. Because if he doesn't end up as part of the elect then something's wrong.

But Gandhi did not become a Christian because he didn't like the so-called Christians he had met. If Jesus is the way and we are to follow Him, why do we not follow Him regardless of how humans are behaving?

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” --- Mahatma Gandhi


"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12)