Are Christians members of Christ's Church?

[sojourner]

The word rapture does not appear in the Bible; however, caught up does. And that is exactly what rapture means.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
​

The ancient texts of New Testament scripture were written in the Greek language, and the Greek word for "caught up" is harpazo. Later, the Bible was translated into Latin over 15 centuries ago. The Greek word harpazo was translated as the Latin word "raptios," which was later transliterated into English as the word "rapture".

FYI, the Vulgate was translated between the years 382-87, predating the closing of the canon.

On a different note, I'm not sure what you mean by your reference to "the church age." Could you elucidate?

 

[Enoch07]

The word rapture does not appear in the Bible; however, caught up does. And that is exactly what rapture means.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
​

The ancient texts of New Testament scripture were written in the Greek language, and the Greek word for "caught up" is harpazo. Later, the Bible was translated into Latin over 15 centuries ago. The Greek word harpazo was translated as the Latin word "raptios," which was later transliterated into English as the word "rapture".

Like I say the rapture theory was thought up by a woman in the 1800's who thought similarly to you. She was not a prophet, she was a false teacher, which Jesus warned us against.

And actually you are describing the Anti-Christ. Read on down further.

Thessalonians: 5: 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
It is saying that us True Christians know to not believe what was just said.

Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains up a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Thessalonians 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day, an those who get drunk are drunk at night.

And so on.

The anti-christ comes in the end days pretending to be Christ. He will make world peace, Thessalonians 5:3, he will heal people of physical ailments, he will proclaim to be God/Jesus. But he is actually Satan here to deceive you. Therefore if you believe in the rapture you are inadverently worshipping satan. Any prophecy given "night or darkness" or by lunar accounts refer to satan, as he is the prince of darkness.

 

[LittleNipper]

FYI, the Vulgate was translated between the years 382-87, predating the closing of the canon.

On a different note, I'm not sure what you mean by your reference to "the church age." Could you elucidate?

The CHURCH AGE I believe began at Pentecost and will run until CHRIST returns to catch away HIS Bride ---- THE CHURCH to heaven. The world will on pass into the 7 year Tribulation Period, during that time THE CHURCH will celebrate a wedding feast with CHRIST.

 

[LittleNipper]

Like I say the rapture theory was thought up by a woman in the 1800's who thought similarly to you. She was not a prophet, she was a false teacher, which Jesus warned us against.

And actually you are describing the Anti-Christ. Read on down further.

Thessalonians: 5: 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
It is saying that us True Christians know to not believe what was just said.

Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains up a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Thessalonians 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Thessalonians 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day, an those who get drunk are drunk at night.

And so on.

The anti-christ comes in the end days pretending to be Christ. He will make world peace, Thessalonians 5:3, he will heal people of physical ailments, he will proclaim to be God/Jesus. But he is actually Satan here to deceive you. Therefore if you believe in the rapture you are inadverently worshipping satan. Any prophecy given "night or darkness" or by lunar accounts refer to satan, as he is the prince of darkness.

The Anti-Christ reigns during the 7 year Tribulation Period. I do not believe THE CHURCH will go through the TRIBULATION, but will be caught away, as Noah was a type or representation.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

So, LittleNipper, if a person is a Christian, is he a member of Christ's Church? Is he part of the body?

 

[Enoch07]

As pointed out by a "friend" I have dipped into the area of "preaching" which is not what I am here for. /deleted

 

[Enoch07]

The Anti-Christ reigns during the 7 year Tribulation Period. I do not believe THE CHURCH will go through the TRIBULATION, but will be caught away, as Noah was a type or representation.

As stated before the tribulation only last for 5 months. The tribulation only affects those who have been deceived by Satan/Anti-Christ. God protects and provides for his anointed ones. And the Anti-Christ is not allowed to harm the ones with the seal of God in their forehead. Meaning Christians who know better than to be deceived. Our job here on earth is to witness against the Anti-Christ, if it happens in our lifetime, we do not get a free pass even at the bitter end of our mortal existence.

If you are caught up by the Anti-Christ it is because you have accepted him as Christ, which means basically your sacrificing yourself/loved ones to the Anti-Christ. Which means you are not allowing yourself to witness against him. Therefore not doing your job as a Christian. Jesus does not return to earth till after the tribulation of Satan. That is when He puts His foot down and puts a stop to everything.

 

[ayani]

well, i'd argue that a Christian is a Christ-follower. someone who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is God's Son and the Savior, and has been called to follow Him, and been saved and made new by His grace.

many churches claim that theirs is the one true church, to which one must belong to be saved and right with God. yet so many churches, whether they began to see themselves as a distinct entity in 300 A.D or 1964 A.D have made that claim, based on everything from apostolic succession, to correct scriptural interpretation, to the prophethood of their founder, etc.

but what saves a person? can a religious institution save a person? can a denomination's founder or Bible translation save a person? does apostolic succession save us? can a televangelist or a preacher or a Roman bishop save a person? no, but the Son of God can.

and so many churches and leaders of these churches which have claimed to be uniquely appointed by God as the One True Church have done things and taught others to do things which in no way reflect or obey the Jesus of the Gospels. things like killing, stealing, hoarding wealth, living for material pleasure, persecuting "heretics", reviling and belittling sinners, buying political influence, ruining the lives of perceived enemies, etc.

so if these churches / Christian movements are commanding, allowing, and teaching people to do things things, how are they showing people how to be Christ-followers, or Christ-like? how are they themselves truly Christian?

what makes one a Christian is knowing and following God's Son. apart from Jesus, we are estranged from God, and from His grace. what makes one a member of Christ's body is being baptized in His Spirit, and living for Him and because of Him. following His commandments, and living a life of prayer, service, discipleship, and love for His sake.

simply being a devout member of a church or its religious life does not automatically make one a Christ-follower. Jesus' Holy Spirit can work in and through many churches and communities and individuals. whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, or none of the above. if we belong to Jesus, who is eternal and available to all who call upon Him, we belong to His church, which literally means "congregation" or "gathering".

Some churches recognize non-members as Christians and some don't. Is it possible to be a Christian without being a member of Christ's Church? Can a person receive eternal life without ever becoming a member of His Church? I'd like to see how people answer this. What do the various Protestant and non-protestant groups teach?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

if we belong to Jesus, who is eternal and available to all who call upon Him, we belong to His church, which literally means "congregation" or "gathering".

:yes: Until now, I thought no one understood my question.

 

[RomCat]

No one can be saved but thru the Roman Catholic Church because Christ is
one with the Church he founded and no one can be saved but thru Christ.
With that said, God is merciful and those who are not Catholics can be saved
but even then the grace of salvation must come to them thru the Roman Catholic
Church.

 

[no_spoon]

RomCat, quoting from the Catholic Catechism:

"819. Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church."

Although I realize your comments are approximately the same as that quotation, I would make two suggestions:

- Your comment that "God is merciful" could be misread to suggest that He is merciful toward people who picked, or were born into, the "wrong" Church. I don't think you meant to imply that. Yes, God is merciful, and yes, a Catholic believes graces flow from the Catholic Church, but that does not mean God needs to be any more merciful to those inside or outside the RC Church, we all are in the same need of His mercy.

- I do not believe there is anything in the Catholic Catechism that says you can only be saved by membership in the RC Church, which your comment could be misinterpreted to suggest, but I don't think you meant to imply that.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

RomCat, quoting from the Catholic Catechism:

"819. Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church."

Although I realize your comments are approximately the same as that quotation, I would make two suggestions:

- Your comment that "God is merciful" could be misread to suggest that He is merciful toward people who picked, or were born into, the "wrong" Church. I don't think you meant to imply that. Yes, God is merciful, and yes, a Catholic believes graces flow from the Catholic Church, but that does not mean God needs to be any more merciful to those inside or outside the RC Church, we all are in the same need of His mercy.

- I do not believe there is anything in the Catholic Catechism that says you can only be saved by membership in the RC Church, which your comment could be misinterpreted to suggest, but I don't think you meant to imply that.

no_spoon, I wonder if you and RomCat are saying that there are Christians outside of Christ's Church. If someone is a follower of Christ can he be not part of the body and Christ not be his head?

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Some churches recognize non-members as Christians and some don't. Is it possible to be a Christian without being a member of Christ's Church? Can a person receive eternal life without ever becoming a member of His Church? I'd like to see how people answer this. What do the various Protestant and non-protestant groups teach?

I would need to state my definition of terms you speak of.
Christ's Church = Anyone who becomes saved and now belongs to the spiritual oneness of God
Eternal Life = Anyone who becomes saved and now belongs to the spiritual oneness of God

Can we absolutely determine if a baby born in India that dies at birth is not part of Christ's church? Does anyone actually take it upon themselves to say who are part of the church and who are not? I think that would be a problem to try and say who is and who isn't.

 

[no_spoon]

To Aletheia and itwillend:

In this reply I am going to be a little selfish and just state my personal beliefs. In earlier replies I tried to be tactful vis the teachings of the RC Church (to which I belong) and other members who are Catholic or Christian involved in this thread.

I think the following will be closer to what you both believe than some of my earlier (tactful) replies may have led you to believe.

#1 - I believe there are mystical aspects to the universe that are way above our pay grade. I believe in the mystical body of Christ. "Christian" is a label, and it is also a reality. We can apply the label to ourselves or to others, but only Christ knows the reality.

#2 - I believe we come to Christ through the grace of God and not through any merit of our own. I believe how the grace makes its way from God to us is academic and/or political and is of no interest to me (which does not mean I mind it being discussed, it just holds no interest for me).

#3 - I believe C. S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity" did a wonderful job of covering such questions (who is or is not a Christian, can we compare two Christians, who was saved by the death of the Son of God, etc.) He was a genius (IMHO) and I am not, so I recommend his writings.

To directly answer you Aletheia, I do *not* think RomCat and I are saying the same thing.

To directly answer both of you, I am saying a true follower of Christ (which we cannot know but Christ does) is most definitely a member of His church, period. Regardless of nationality, denomination, personality or habits. And I think it is sad that this is not a more widespread belief.

But as I said at the top of this reply, all of this is just my personal opinion. I hope my forceful way of putting it did not sound like I was preaching to either of you. I just wanted to dump my heart out on this topic once and for all.

 

[gzusfrk]

I said this earlier this week: Jesus' Church is made up by all those who follow Him. It doesn't matter about denominations or what building you worship in.

As to who goes and does not go to heaven, I couldn't tell you.

This is correct ..jesus said my sheep hear my voice and they follow me.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

To Aletheia and itwillend:

In this reply I am going to be a little selfish and just state my personal beliefs. In earlier replies I tried to be tactful vis the teachings of the RC Church (to which I belong) and other members who are Catholic or Christian involved in this thread.

I think the following will be closer to what you both believe than some of my earlier (tactful) replies may have led you to believe.

#1 - I believe there are mystical aspects to the universe that are way above our pay grade. I believe in the mystical body of Christ. "Christian" is a label, and it is also a reality. We can apply the label to ourselves or to others, but only Christ knows the reality.

#2 - I believe we come to Christ through the grace of God and not through any merit of our own. I believe how the grace makes its way from God to us is academic and/or political and is of no interest to me (which does not mean I mind it being discussed, it just holds no interest for me).

#3 - I believe C. S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity" did a wonderful job of covering such questions (who is or is not a Christian, can we compare two Christians, who was saved by the death of the Son of God, etc.) He was a genius (IMHO) and I am not, so I recommend his writings.

To directly answer you Aletheia, I do *not* think RomCat and I are saying the same thing.

To directly answer both of you, I am saying a true follower of Christ (which we cannot know but Christ does) is most definitely a member of His church, period. Regardless of nationality, denomination, personality or habits. And I think it is sad that this is not a more widespread belief.

But as I said at the top of this reply, all of this is just my personal opinion. I hope my forceful way of putting it did not sound like I was preaching to either of you. I just wanted to dump my heart out on this topic once and for all.

Hey, no problem! I was just looking for clarification.

 

[Sisterariana]

When Jesus comes back He will be looking at the hearts of the people He has had relationships with. He mentioned this- ...depart from me I knew you not... He also said those who do the will of the Father are those who are His brother, sister.. those who put God's desires for their lives before their own...willing to forgive those who hurt them...willing to give their time, money, resources that they'd rather keep for themselves...these people who live sacrificial lives make up the body of Christ- the church.

 

[Katzpur]

The only tue christan is a Mormon Christian

How would you know? No "true Mormon" would make such an absurd statement. You are clearly not LDS yourself. I hope everybody who reads every one of your posts is able to see through you as easily as I am.

 

[AlsoAnima]

Some churches recognize non-members as Christians and some don't.

That's a scary thought.

Is it possible to be a Christian without being a member of Christ's Church?

Not really, since Christ's Church are all those who follow him.

Can a person receive eternal life without ever becoming a member of His Church?

Everybody has eternal life.

I'd like to see how people answer this. What do the various Protestant and non-protestant groups teach?

They teach a lot of things.

 

[AlsoAnima]

:yes: Until now, I thought no one understood my question.

You know, the first response was Katzpur asking you to clarify, which you refused to do. Has it ever occured to you that could have contributed to the confusion?