Are Christians members of Christ's Church?

[ChristineES]

I said this earlier this week: Jesus' Church is made up by all those who follow Him. It doesn't matter about denominations or what building you worship in.

As to who goes and does not go to heaven, I couldn't tell you.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I said this earlier this week: Jesus' Church is made up by all those who follow Him. It doesn't matter about denominations or what building you worship in.

As to who goes and does not go to heaven, I couldn't tell you.

Do some Christians not go to heaven? Where else would they go?

 

[ChristineES]

Do some Christians not go to heaven? Where else would they go?

I would assume that anyone who is in union with God would be with Him, and so in Heaven. But that is an assumption on my part. Only God knows the answer.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I would assume that anyone who is in union with God would be with Him, and so in Heaven. But that is an assumption on my part. Only God knows the answer.

Isn't eternal life to live in the Presence of God forever?

 

[no_spoon]

ἀλήθεια, I'll try to answer your two recent questions, though I am of course not an expert in these areas (just 16 years of Catholic school and reading books and looking up things on the Web, but that still doesn't make me an expert).

As far as I know Purgatory is a process of preparation and that whatever unpleasantness there may be is erased by what lies just beyond. If you have ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" I think there is a scene that suggests that kind of transition.

Furthermore, based on all my research cited above, Catholics and non-Catholic Christians (at least) will be going to Heaven, and therefore (logically) I expect a mixture of both in Purgatory.

As for Gandhi, yes, I knew of that quote, which is why I knew the exclusion "through no fault of their own" in section 848 did not seem to apply to him. And so I wished for some other "loop hole".

And as for your question as to why the behavior of other Christians could possibly be used as an excuse to not become a Christian, I think there are a number of things that could be said. Someone who has become a Christian should not stop being one because of the behavior of other Christians, but we cannot expect the same adherence to that rule from someone who did not even join the faith. C. S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity" speaks of a whole definitional question for the word "Christian", but I don't want to go off on a tangent. There is also in theology the division between God's ultimate will and his permissive will. Jesus said he was the way and all should follow him. But he also said that the brother who griped and moaned but still did the will of the Father was better than the one who said he would but never did. I see Gandhi as doing the Father's will regardless of what he chose to call it.

 

[Katzpur]

Now, having given the official line I will give my opinion. Since I believe Gandhi was far from ignorant of the Gospel, and since I believe he put into practice far more of Christ's teachings (and at great cost to himself) than most Catholics I know, then I am forced to believe that I am either misunderstanding section 848 or else there better be a loophole. Because if he doesn't end up as part of the elect then something's wrong.

I'll go along with you 100%! It was pretty much what I knew you'd say. :yes:

 

[no_spoon]

Katzpur said:

Something tells me that no_spoon could have referred to an invisible church and an institutional church without your trying to twist his words into something other than what he meant.

Actually Katzpur I did say that but not outright. See my first post in this thread where I commented:

And I think Christ himself said as much in John 4:5-42.

And verse 24 of that Scripture reference is:

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

Lastly I will quote from a book I was just reading last night ("The Shepherd" by Joseph Girzone):

If the Holy Spirit had been guiding the Church for the past two thousand years, as Jesus promised He would, then the Church should have advanced significantly in its understanding of the message of Jesus. That should be reflected in the beliefs and culture of the Church.

Which gets back to the point I made about the theological difference between the permissive and ultimate Will of God that I made in an earlier post. In my opinion Jesus never wanted worshiping in spirit and truth to create any tension with worshiping in community. Jesus also wanted unity among his disciples, just as there is unity in God (John 17:20). But long before all that when God created man his permissive Will was that man should have his own free will. As a mere creature our free will can never truly trump God's Ultimate will, but it can create tension, confusion and pain (an understatement).

I think that is the crux of it (in my opinion). What God wants and what we have done. And, just as any parent, He wants us to grow and mature into something wonderful more than He wants us to become robots or parrots, though He realizes that the latter would result in less pain.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I hope you get an opportunity to answer these questions for me, Katzpur, because I obviously didn't understand what you were saying.

Do Christian belong to an institutional church and an invisible church? Where is the reference to this in your scripture? The Book of Mormon says: "And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil." (1 Nephi 14:10) How can a Christian belong to two churches if one is the church of the Lamb of God and the other one is the church of the devil? If the body of Christ crosses denominational lines, how can His body not be part of the church of the Lamb of God? Christ is the head of the body.



So which institutional church is Christ's Church? What is the gospel that is going to be preached in the "Spirit World?" Is it your religion? Is Rev. Kowalski who is part of the body of Christ preaching a false gospel? If he is, isn't he working for the church of the devil?

 

[ἀλήθεια]

ἀλήθεια, I'll try to answer your two recent questions, though I am of course not an expert in these areas (just 16 years of Catholic school and reading books and looking up things on the Web, but that still doesn't make me an expert).

As far as I know Purgatory is a process of preparation and that whatever unpleasantness there may be is erased by what lies just beyond. If you have ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" I think there is a scene that suggests that kind of transition.

Furthermore, based on all my research cited above, Catholics and non-Catholic Christians (at least) will be going to Heaven, and therefore (logically) I expect a mixture of both in Purgatory.

As for Gandhi, yes, I knew of that quote, which is why I knew the exclusion "through no fault of their own" in section 848 did not seem to apply to him. And so I wished for some other "loop hole".

And as for your question as to why the behavior of other Christians could possibly be used as an excuse to not become a Christian, I think there are a number of things that could be said. Someone who has become a Christian should not stop being one because of the behavior of other Christians, but we cannot expect the same adherence to that rule from someone who did not even join the faith. C. S. Lewis in his book "Mere Christianity" speaks of a whole definitional question for the word "Christian", but I don't want to go off on a tangent. There is also in theology the division between God's ultimate will and his permissive will. Jesus said he was the way and all should follow him. But he also said that the brother who griped and moaned but still did the will of the Father was better than the one who said he would but never did. I see Gandhi as doing the Father's will regardless of what he chose to call it.

Thank you.

 

[sojourner]

Some churches recognize non-members as Christians and some don't. Is it possible to be a Christian without being a member of Christ's Church? Can a person receive eternal life without ever becoming a member of His Church? I'd like to see how people answer this. What do the various Protestant and non-protestant groups teach?

Organizational "churches" are convenient for our socialization of like-minded religious people, but they're really not important spiritually. There is one Body. It is the body of Christ, of which all believers are part, no matter what they choose to call themselves, how they choose to organize, or how they go about the business of living out their faith.
Because of the Christ Event, all humanity has been given grace to live eternally. It's possible to live eternally without ever identifying one's self as part of a "church." but I think that those who embrace Christ and embrace the idea of eternal life have already become members of the "church," or ekklesia, no matter how they conceive it.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

Organizational "churches" are convenient for our socialization of like-minded religious people, but they're really not important spiritually. There is one Body. It is the body of Christ, of which all believers are part, no matter what they choose to call themselves, how they choose to organize, or how they go about the business of living out their faith.
Because of the Christ Event, all humanity has been given grace to live eternally. It's possible to live eternally without ever identifying one's self as part of a "church." but I think that those who embrace Christ and embrace the idea of eternal life have already become members of the "church," or ekklesia, no matter how they conceive it.

Thank you for your answer. Do you mind if I ask if you believe in the importance of church attendance, not for salvation, but as evidence of it?

 

[sojourner]

Thank you for your answer. Do you mind if I ask if you believe in the importance of church attendance, not for salvation, but as evidence of it?

The only evidence we have is the Christ Event -- and that proclaimed. Being active in your faith-group is part of that proclamation. Our proclamation of that Event helps us to ground the knowledge of our salvation more firmly within us -- helps to make it part of us. If that's what you mean by "importance," then I agree.

However, we don't attend just to give others evidence that we've been saved. We attend because being part of the Church is being part of a body of people. It's a communal event. I think it's a mistake to try and live out our Xy alone, because so much of Xy is about the relationship. If we're just loving God, we're only completing half the equation. The other half is to love our neighbor as ourself. Just as Jesus gathered with his disciples of that day, so Jesus wants to gather with disciples of our day.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

The only evidence we have is the Christ Event -- and that proclaimed. Being active in your faith-group is part of that proclamation. Our proclamation of that Event helps us to ground the knowledge of our salvation more firmly within us -- helps to make it part of us. If that's what you mean by "importance," then I agree.

However, we don't attend just to give others evidence that we've been saved. We attend because being part of the Church is being part of a body of people. It's a communal event. I think it's a mistake to try and live out our Xy alone, because so much of Xy is about the relationship. If we're just loving God, we're only completing half the equation. The other half is to love our neighbor as ourself. Just as Jesus gathered with his disciples of that day, so Jesus wants to gather with disciples of our day.

As you said, "We don't attend just to give others evidence that we've been saved." I meant that attending church would be one of the results of our salvation and that result is also evidence of the change within our hearts. Does that sound right to you?

 

[sojourner]

As you said, "We don't attend just to give others evidence that we've been saved." I meant that attending church would be one of the results of our salvation and that result is also evidence of the change within our hearts. Does that sound right to you?

I suppose, if you want to look at it that way. Personally, I don't look at church attendance as "evidence," even though it might be evidence. I don't have a need for others to know about my convictions. I know them myself, and I try to do things that are congruent with those convictions. If others need proof of my convictions, and my church attendance confirms something for them, then good for them.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

I suppose, if you want to look at it that way. Personally, I don't look at church attendance as "evidence," even though it might be evidence. I don't have a need for others to know about my convictions. I know them myself, and I try to do things that are congruent with those convictions. If others need proof of my convictions, and my church attendance confirms something for them, then good for them.

No church attendance alone would not prove anything. However, "by their fruits ye shall know them"(see Matt. 7). Church attendance would be only one fruit. It shows those around us that we are willing to obey:
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Heb. 10:24-25)

 

[sojourner]

No church attendance alone would not prove anything. However, "by their fruits ye shall know them"(see Matt. 7). Church attendance would be only one fruit. It shows those around us that we are willing to obey:
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Heb. 10:24-25)

that's fine, so long as the fruit is eaten, and not shellacked and displayed on a shelf.

 

[Enoch07]

I may not understand your answer. Are there Christians outside the Roman Catholic church and is it possible to find salvation apart from Catholicism?

Yes and Yes. Actually the bible says that church is a gathering of 2 or more people in Gods name. So if there is 2 people sitting in a room discussing God they are technically in church.

 

[LittleNipper]

Yes and Yes. Actually the bible says that church is a gathering of 2 or more people in Gods name. So if there is 2 people sitting in a room discussing God they are technically in church.

So if someone or organization tells you that the Church Age is over, they are false prophets or you missed the rapture...

 

[Enoch07]

The "Church Age" never existed for me so I cannot agree or disagree with that statement.

Jesus said himself "Beware of false prophets that come in My name", which means we are responsible for knowing the difference between false and true prophets.

The rapture is a myth, conceived by a mentally handicapped woman in the 1800's. The word "Rapture" does not appear in the bible a 1 single time. Jesus even stated Himself "Beware of those that teach My children to fly away, for they are against Me."

Don't have time to research the exact verses word for word, but if you don't believe me you can research it yourself.

 

[LittleNipper]

The "Church Age" never existed for me so I cannot agree or disagree with that statement.

Jesus said himself "Beware of false prophets that come in My name", which means we are responsible for knowing the difference between false and true prophets.

The rapture is a myth, conceived by a mentally handicapped woman in the 1800's. The word "Rapture" does not appear in the bible a 1 single time. Jesus even stated Himself "Beware of those that teach My children to fly away, for they are against Me."

Don't have time to research the exact verses word for word, but if you don't believe me you can research it yourself.

The word rapture does not appear in the Bible; however, caught up does. And that is exactly what rapture means.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
​

The ancient texts of New Testament scripture were written in the Greek language, and the Greek word for "caught up" is harpazo. Later, the Bible was translated into Latin over 15 centuries ago. The Greek word harpazo was translated as the Latin word "raptios," which was later transliterated into English as the word "rapture".