Are human lives more valuable or of more worth than those of other species?

[Vouthon]

You'd also agree that the ape was faultless too, yes?.

Absolutely. Faultless and not culpable.

But the child was by far the more vulnerable.

 

[Pudding]

I don't think anyone is trying to argue that the life of a human is worth less than any an individual of any other species.

The op making an argument to argue that the gorilla's life is far more worth than the human boy's life.
IOW, the human boy's life worth less than the gorilla's life:

In fact, I think a good argument could be made that the gorilla's life was actually of far more worth than the human boy's life, simply going by numbers. There are almost 7.5 billion humans on the planet but less than 200,000 gorillas of all subspecies in the world. Humans are a dime a dozen and more are arriving on the planet each moment, but gorillas are not. They're going to disappear soon and that's due to human actions. I can understand why a person would be more likely to judge a child as having more importance or worth than a non-human animal. But that's just bias, ultimately, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. But I do think we've passed the time that we can get away with promoting such views since we're actively destroying the biosphere and leading many species to extinction. Our insane arrogance is literally going to kill us and perhaps a good chunk of the planet, as well, unless we get it in check right away.

Another poster who later argue animal(T/E species) worth more than any human:

Though it should go without saying that if one values present biodiversity, the life of a T/E species is "worth more" than any human.

 

[Vouthon]

Personally, I don't even see the big deal with finding fault in this (or many) situations. For sure not up to the level where lots of money is owed and/or heads should (figuratively) roll. An ape's life was lost and that is a tragedy, but the people responsible for that ape's life (and care) decided to make that decision. IMO, they are the one's dealing with actual tragedy. Because human life does matter, you'd think we all be pleased as punch the child is virtually unscathed in what any adult reading this would never want to experience.

If we had to discuss fault, I could not bring myself to letting the child off scott free. But even less able to see a desire to punish any one, including the child for what occurred. Yet, I get how parent neglect operates and how zoo's design operates in terms of legal battles and is where I'm confident some form of punishment will be sought. Can't have this much attention on something and not give off at least the appearance of a head rolling to satisfy the vengeful amongst us.

I think you've raised many good points here.

I don't see it in terms of "punishment".

The parents and zoo security staff do not deserve punishment but they do deserve to be made an example of so that we can all learn from what went wrong and make sure that unnecessary loss of life on the part of an animal belonging to an endangered species need not happen in future. Because the simple fact is that had those parents been dutiful parents providing their child with the round-the-clock supervision that such a young child requires, this tragic episode need not have happened. They failed to owe the duty of care towards their child that dutiful parenthood demands.

A serious failure took place here. There is no doubt about that.

The mistake must be learned from.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You are morally judging a 4 year old child to be a "brat" because he wandered into a holding pen with a giant primate?

That's insane and insensitive to me.

Children are vulnerable not only because of their size, lack of bodily strength etc. but because of their lack of experience of danger and tendency not to be aware of imminent harm to their persons.

A 4 year old child is a million times more vulnerable than a fully-grown, adult primate and cannot be judged for not knowing when a situation is dangerous given that they are still nearly wholly dependent on the supervision of adults - adults who failed to properly watch over their deep dent child and thus indirectly led to this tragic outcome.

Finally! That's exactly the problem.

The kids 4 years old!

It's a massive failure on part of the child's adult guardians more so than the Zoo is.

Well said!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That one child's life was more valuable than all the Silver Back Gorillas that are walking the earth combined.

Typical speciest bs. Do you value biodiversity on the planet? Do you think it's okay that gorillas are about to disappear from the planet thanks to the actions of humans? There's about 7.5 billion humans but less than 200,000 gorillas of all subspecies. We're not endangered.

You can let your heart bleed for the gorilla all you want but you would never be able to justify allowing the animal to kill the child under any circumstance. Unfortunately there was no other viable choice, the animal had to be neutralized quickly because you cannot reason with a wild animal. When we can sit down face-to-face and reason with beasts that kill out of instinct then you may have a case for the value of an animal's life compared to a human's.

Of course you can reason with non-human animals. Zoologists and others who work with various species of animals do it all the time by learning how the species communicates such as through body language, vocalizations, etc. You reason with your pets, too, such as when you scold them and they stop whatever they're doing and act guilty over it.

The gorilla only became agitated when the bystanders started panicking and screaming. Before that, he was calm. Maybe if humans weren't so stupid and learned some basics of how to behave around various animals, the whole situation could've been avoided. Apes such as gorillas (who we share 99% of our DNA with) tend to communicate mostly by body language (same with humans, really, because we're apes, too). If you present yourself as non-threatening, are calm and don't make loud sounds or fast movements, they're not likely to harm you. When unknowns show up in their territory, they're mostly curious and want to know if they're a threat. If they judge you a threat, they will attack you very quickly. So the boy would've been a goner long before Harambe was killed if Harambe saw him as a threat. Gorillas are known to be able to recognize human children as children and to be concerned and protective over them.

As for killing by instinct, it's not as if humans have any room to judge.

Instead of zookeepers, who are not scientists or zoologists, let's see what actual experts have to say:

"An ape body language expert has revealed what was really happening in footage taken moments after a four-year-old boy fell into the enclosure of a gorilla at a US zoo .

Astonishing footage emerged last night showing that Harambe the gorilla appeared to be protecting the youngster before he was shot dead by staff.

Speaking to Mirror Online, ape expert Dr Emily Bethell, a senior lecturer in Primate Behaviour at Liverpool John Moores University, revealed that the gorilla’s body language showed he was NOT threatening the child.

Dr Bethell said: “He was clearly being protective towards the boy.

“There were no signs of the gorilla being aggressive in the sense that he wanted to hurt the boy or anything like that.

“The biggest threat to the boy I would say is obviously when the gorilla moved and dragged him, that could have caused some harm, but the gorilla’s body language is definitely protective.”

In the latest video from the dramatic scene in Cincinnati, Ohio, the boy is seen sitting calmly next to the massive animal.

In one moment, the gorilla even appears to wrap his arms around the boy. At one point the boy and gorilla even appear to briefly hold hands.

Emily continued: “I would speculate that the boy is a new stimulus, he’s something novel.

“The gorillas would never have seen a child at such close quarters.

“The child obviously wasn’t posing any threat to the gorillas so there’s no need to attack him and I think it’s fortunate for the boy that one gorilla came over and effectively shielded him and kept the other gorillas away.

“I think it looks mostly like a case of extreme interest by the gorillas.”

Moments after pulling the boy through the water, the 17-year-old gorilla was fatally shot by zoo staff in a bid to protect the youngster who had fallen 12 feet into the enclosure.

However, eyewitnesses have claimed that the gorilla was showing no aggressive behaviour towards the boy.

It is claimed that screams from those watching the unfolding situation panicked the animal, causing him to drag the child at a quick speed across the water.

Echoing those concerns, Emily told Mirror Online: “One of the biggest threats to the boy actually were the screaming visitors who were causing a lot of disruption and possibly stressing out this gorilla who was just engaging in very normal behaviour.

“On the whole, animals will avoid fighting or getting into aggressive encounters unless they actually feel threatened and this boy clearly didn’t pose any threat.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/gorilla-trying-kill-protect-boy-8087981

The man who raised Harambe from a baby was heartbroken and described Harambe as very gentle and intelligent: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/adopted-father-who-raised-endangered-8080082

"There was no moment of acute aggression, as also admitted by the zoo director. If the gorilla had wanted to kill the child, one bang of his fist would have done it. People have no idea of their superhuman strength. Yet, he didn’t perform any killing move.I should also clarify, since people on Facebook have said that gorillas are dangerous predators, that this is entirely wrong. A gorilla doesn’t look at a human child as something edible.

The species is not interested in catching moving objects, the way cats are. Lions or tigers are predators, but gorillas are peaceful vegetarians. They prefer a juicy fruit over a piece of meat any time of the day. The one thing that reliably makes a gorilla male mad is another male who enters his territory or gets too close to his females and young. Haramba surely knew that he was not dealing with competition, hence had no reason to attack.There are several previous cases of toddlers falling into gorilla enclosures, one at the Brookfield Zoo in Chicago and another at Jersey Zoo (UK). In both cases, the children survived the attention of the apes, in one case even receiving assistance from them."

From:
Leading Primatologist Frans de Waal Weighs in on Controversy Surrounding Harambe, Gorilla Shot at Zoo
http://www.alternet.org/environment/rip-harambe

 

[Godobeyer]

Hello all

What do you think about this situation ?

 

[Pudding]

Say it to the parents: "The gorilla's life is worth more than your 4 years old child."

And if one day unfortunately your 4 years old child ever fall into the situation being threatening to kill by a gorilla, let others to tell you "the gorilla's life is worth more than your 4 years old child", see how you feel.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Say it to the parents: "The gorilla's life is worth more than your 4 years old little brat."

And if one day unfortunately your 4 years old child ever fall into the situation being threatening to kill by a gorilla,
let others to tell you "the gorilla's life is worth more than your 4 years old little brat", see how you feel.

A lot of people are already telling that to the parents, since their identities have been leaked.

The gorilla wasn't threatening to kill the boy. Please go learn about both the incident and gorillas in general. They're not tigers or lions, for ****'s sake. Gorillas aren't predators. Harambe was also not completely mature. He was basically the equivalent of a teenager.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The op making an argument to argue that the gorilla's life is far more worth than the human boy's life.
IOW, the human boy's life worth less than the gorilla's life:


Another poster who later argue animal(T/E species) worth more than any human:

You wouldn't want to know what I really think of humans as a species, at times. So don't push it. I'm being nice so far.

 

[Vouthon]

The simple fact is that both the ape and the child were the innocent parties in this tragic situation.

The ape did not ask for the child to wander into its pen. The young child could not and did not forsee the risk of his actions in doing do. Anyone who could attribute moral blame to either one of these is reasoning very wrongly indeed.

There was a failure on the part of the adult humans all round in this situation, adult humans who owed a duty of care both to a human child and a caged animal. And of these culpable adults, the parents of the child were by far the most culpable for not supervising him 100% and watching over his every move as dutiful parents must with such young kids.

But as soon as the child wandered into the ape's lair, he was by far the most vulnerable party out of the two and whether or not the animal meant him any harm, or indeed might have seriously harmed him by sheer accident, it was a risk much too great to take.

The more vulnerable party, the child, had to be protected at all costs and by whatever means available to the zoo keepers. No moral blame can be attached to their act of taking the animal's life to save the vulnerable child from potentially life threatening harm.

 

[Pudding]

A lot of people are already telling that to the parents, since their identities have been leaked.

The gorilla wasn't threatening to kill the boy. Please go learn about both the incident and gorillas in general. They're not tigers or lions, for ****'s sake. Gorillas aren't predators.

Okay anyone voluntarily to put their 4 years old child in that situation and calmly say their child's life is not under the threatening to be kill by the gorilla?

 

[Koldo]

Is your cousin's life more valuable than your pet dog?

Most certainly not.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Okay anyone voluntarily to put their 4 years old child in that situation and calmly say their child's life is not under the threatening to be kill by the gorilla?

I've seen the footage and I know that the gorilla wasn't threatening the child and wildlife experts, including scientists, agree. Chimps are actually far more violent and aggressive than gorillas (and humans are more alike chimps than we are alike gorillas, unfortunately for the planet). Care to try and fail again?

 

[Pudding]

You wouldn't want to know what I really think of humans as a species, at times. So don't push it. I'm being nice so far.

You say no one is argue a human's lifes worth less than any an individual of any other species.
I provide the quotes of 2 posters who argue the human lifes worth less than that animal's life.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You say no one is argue a human's lifes worth less than any an individual of any other species.
I provide the quotes of 2 posters who argue the human lifes worth less than that animal's life.

I was saying that an argument could be made that human lives are worth less than the lives of members of other species, but I wasn't actively arguing that in the OP. But now my misanthropy is welling up, so.

 

[Godobeyer]

A lot of people are already telling that to the parents, since their identities have been leaked.

The gorilla wasn't threatening to kill the boy. Please go learn about both the incident and gorillas in general. They're not tigers or lions, for ****'s sake. Gorillas aren't predators. Harambe was also not completely mature. He was basically the equivalent of a teenager.

Do you watch the video?
There is short video , how Gorillas lug the kid in voilence way. in end it's animal .

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you watch the video?
There is short video , how Gorillas lug the kid in voilence way.

Yes, I've seen the footage of Harambe pulling the kid through the water. He started doing that when the idiots watching started panicking and screaming. This alarmed Harambe and he appeared to be trying to pull the boy away from them, to safety, because he perceived the screaming people as a threat.

in end it's animal .

We're animals as well. We're apes. We're primates. Your point?

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, I've seen the footage of Harambe pulling the kid through the water. He started doing that when the idiots watching started panicking and screaming. This alarmed Harambe and he appeared to be trying to pull the boy away from them, to safety, because he perceived the screaming people as a threat.

SO you think that Gorillas is not danger animal ?

He pull the kid in that way to save the kid !!

We're animals as well. We're apes. We're primates. Your point?

You are animal and ape ?

I am human,I am was not apes.

My point animals like gorillas don't have level mind as human being.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

SO you think that Gorillas is not danger animal ?

He pull the kid in that way to save the kid !!

Yes, all the animal experts who have commented on the situation said that Harambe was displaying protective behavior. He saw the panicking and screaming crowd of people as a threat, so he was trying to get the child away from them.

You are animal and ape ?

Yes, and so are you.

I am human,I am was not apes.

All humans are apes, just as all dogs are canids and all cats are felids. Doesn't matter what you personally want to think. Reality is reality.

My point animals like gorillas don't have level mind as human being.

Whales and dolphins are probably more intelligent than humans. Humans aren't that great, and science is showing more and more that other animals are far more intelligent than we like to generally think.

 

[Acim]

I'm thinking in Planet of the Apes, if a small (young) ape falls into same cage as those dirty disgusting caged humans, and a human grabs the arm of the the young ape, bye bye human.

ETA: I wonder what the AETH would have to say about that.