Are humans animals?

[YmirGF]

to YmirGF

ok i found the link, here it is;

Motor Insurance commercial | RAC WA » Insurance » RAC TV commercials » Motor Insurance commercial

so heres my question;

do you believe that a human who has a much more complex structure than a car, can come to existence by chance, just like that car?

Yes, to both, Eselam. Why does it follow that because we create, that we were created? You do understand that the technology that created that car evolved from earlier designs which were a compilation of even more rudimentary designs, correct? Before you can say, "Scotty, beam me down!" we are back at the creation of the wheel.

 

[Gharib]

Yes, to both, Eselam. Why does it follow that because we create, that we were created? You do understand that the technology that created that car evolved from earlier designs which were a compilation of even more rudimentary designs, correct? Before you can say, "Scotty, beam me down!" we are back at the creation of the wheel.

no no, see, the thing is all those parts came to existence by themself, they all knew what their purpose was within the car, and even knew their tasks that they had to perform. first the mettal was created by chance, then the plastic, then the oil then the plastic got mixed up with the metal etc all by chance, untill the perfect design was established.

so how can something so complex, which i, a smart human, smarter than chance cannot create a car, and yet chance can. a car can come to existence all by itself. and all the parts fit in exactly in perfect order, you do know that a car cannot come to existence by chance because it is to complex, you really do know this right?

 

[YmirGF]

no no, see, the thing is all those parts came to existence by themself, they all knew what their purpose was within the car, and even knew their tasks that they had to perform. first the mettal was created by chance, then the plastic, then the oil then the plastic got mixed up with the metal etc all by chance, untill the perfect design was established.

so how can something so complex, which i, a smart human, smarter than chance cannot create a car, and yet chance can. a car can come to existence all by itself. and all the parts fit in exactly in perfect order, you do know that a car cannot come to existence by chance because it is to complex, you really do know this right?

*sigh*

 

[Rin]

There isn't really a clear enough definition of animal to answer that question so definitely so I chose "maybe".

If you are speaking in scientific terms, I consider humans to clearly be animals. However, there are sufficient differences (in degree, not in kind) to warrant a unique status for humans. Whether that is "not an animal" or "a special kind of animal" is probably an unimportant, semantic argument...

 

[Gharib]

*sigh*

oh come on not with this, you are becoming like Mestemia now, i might have to ignore your posts, you know.

so what is your answer to that. do you have one?

 

[jaiwhowalks]

Humans are two legged animals till they seek the Supreme Absolute Truth. Eating, Sleeping, Mating, and Defending are the four functions of all animal species. But once humans rise to the platform of pure conscious existence - they become godly, being part and parcel of the Supreme Father, humans endowed with advanced consciousness can achieve immortality and be situated beyond birth and death.

 

[Buttons*]

There isn't really a clear enough definition of animal to answer that question so definitely so I chose "maybe".

If you are speaking in scientific terms, I consider humans to clearly be animals. However, there are sufficient differences (in degree, not in kind) to warrant a unique status for humans. Whether that is "not an animal" or "a special kind of animal" is probably an unimportant, semantic argument...

this i think is what I tried to get at. Mine was too lengthy, but this said what I meant.

 

[YmirGF]

this i think is what I tried to get at. Mine was too lengthy, but this said what I meant.

I see us more as the most successful primate to have yet existed. Our ability to reason is our main mode of survival because we lack more overt forms of protection.

oh come on not with this, you are becoming like Mestemia now, i might have to ignore your posts, you know.

so what is your answer to that. do you have one?

I do have answers, Eselam, but I doubt you would understand them. Due to that probability I am not inclined to take the bait. Remember, it is the second mouse that gets the cheese. My advice to you is to go to the library and actually start reading about evolution. I am confident in saying that once you do, you will see that your understanding of evolution is false.

 

[Buttons*]

I see us more as the most successful primate to have yet existed. Our ability to reason is our main mode of survival because we lack more overt forms of protection.

Perhaps. We're still animals and we will always be. But our sense of awareness and ability to actually open up to an awareness of the divine is the part of us that is "non" animal.

In a way, I believe all life understands the divine, but humans understand our own divine, the divine of others, and the capacity to even participate in "non-being" whilst being aware.... it's absolutely remarkable.

Remember, it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.

heeeeee

 

[Gharib]

I see us more as the most successful primate to have yet existed. Our ability to reason is our main mode of survival because we lack more overt forms of protection.

oh, jeez. you guys don't get it, still. look we are different to animals because of our brain, animals do things by instict. a lion will kill you with his mouth, thats the only way it can kill you or maybe with his paws too, so 2 ways, it cannot think of other ways. whereas the human can kill someone in all sorts of ways and with all sorts of methods and tools. please tell me which part isn't clear?

I do have answers, Eselam,

i can see that, no actually i cant since you haven't answered me.

but I doubt you would understand them. Due to that probability I am not inclined to take the bait.

try me.

Remember, it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.

and it is the first human that gets everything, because we use our brain not our instict. a mouse will see the cheese and it doesn't think about the dangers, so it will try to eat it. but a human analyses first then goes for the kill. still don't get it?

My advice to you is to go to the library and actually start reading about evolution. I am confident in saying that once you do, you will see that your understanding of evolution is false

the theory itself is false, i would just be building up my brain with false info, whats the point in that. if it was true, why is it still called a theory?

 

[Buttons*]

oh, jeez. you guys don't get it, still. look we are different to animals because of our brain, animals do things by instict. a lion will kill you with his mouth, thats the only way it can kill you or maybe with his paws too, so 2 ways, it cannot think of other ways. whereas the human can kill someone in all sorts of ways and with all sorts of methods and tools. please tell me which part isn't clear?

may I ask you something? (I will anyway lol, but you don't have to answer.) Do you mean that our ability to use tools in some significant way makes us less animal like? Because the desire to kill is a very animal type-feature, whether we employ new methods of killing is almost irrelevant if we still hold onto that animal nature... don't you think?

and it is the first human that gets everything, because we use our brain not our instict. a mouse will see the cheese and it doesn't think about the dangers, so it will try to eat it. but a human analyses first then goes for the kill. still don't get it?

Well, not all humans analyze things before they engage in stupid stuff. That's why we have the Darwin Awards, for those people who act like mice instead of men.

 

[Gharib]

may I ask you something? (I will anyway lol, but you don't have to answer.) Do you mean that our ability to use tools in some significant way makes us less animal like? Because the desire to kill is a very animal type-feature, whether we employ new methods of killing is almost irrelevant if we still hold onto that animal nature... don't you think?

no it is not our ability to use tools, but our ability to use our brain. we use tools to fulfill our needs, just like some animals do to feed themselves. but our brain makes things for us, it makes us stronger than all the creatures, although we are the weakest species.

Well, not all humans analyze things before they engage in stupid stuff. That's why we have the Darwin Awards, for those people who act like mice instead of men.

yes, we do have guine pigs, we need them, but still it is the first human that gets everything, he who came up with an idea doesn't test it on himself.

 

[Buttons*]

no it is not our ability to use tools, but our ability to use our brain. we use tools to fulfill our needs, just like some animals do to feed themselves. but our brain makes things for us, it makes us stronger than all the creatures, although we are the weakest species.

So, what exactly are your reasons for thinking that humans are not animals versus having different creative attributes than most creatures, and still being animals? We have both seen that the desire to kill is in every one of us, so the animal in us can't be gone. Do you propose some form of hybrid theory like:

People are biologically animals, but our brains make us non-animal?

or is it more like

People are made from God, and are God's chosen species, thus while they have similar features to animals, God made us non-animal.

Is it neither of these?

yes, we do have guine pigs, we need them, but still it is the first human that gets everything, he who came up with an idea doesn't test it on himself.

Actually, that's not always true. The guy who created LSD tried it on himself. Many scientists will actually go through their experiments on their own before testing it on other animals or people. But that's not really the point, is it? I suppose, some of us act more animal than others... but what is it that makes us non-animal, in your opinion?

 

[Gharib]

So, what exactly are your reasons for thinking that humans are not animals versus having different creative attributes than most creatures, and still being animals? We have both seen that the desire to kill is in every one of us, so the animal in us can't be gone. Do you propose some form of hybrid theory like:

well just because dogs have ears that doesn't mean we are dogs. does it. everyone kills, thats the stuff that keeps everything in place, nothing over populates. well appart from humans, see how we are different.

People are biologically animals, but our brains make us non-animal?

people are biologically people, just as dogs are biologically dogs.

or is it more like

People are made from God, and are God's chosen species,

exactly. we have been given free will while the other animals don't have it. they are just brainless creatures that god created to serve us. god himself has elevated humans from animals, if you think otherwise, then why are we the only species that have free will, out of the milions and posibly bilions of other species or creatures.
i didn't want to go religious on this topic, seeing that YMG doesn't believe in a god creator (i think).

thus while they have similar features to animals, God made us non-animal.

everything looks alike to something else, but it doesn't mean that we are like them, because then we are like all the animals, ie a dog, a cat, a bird, a cow, and we would not be just an animal.

Is it neither of these?

sort of,

Actually, that's not always true. The guy who created LSD tried it on himself. Many scientists will actually go through their experiments on their own before testing it on other animals or people. But that's not really the point, is it? I suppose, some of us act more animal than others... but what is it that makes us non-animal, in your opinion?

well then there are some "humans" who can't think first.

what makes us a non animal are these;

we have free will;
we have beliefs (religions),
we have a brain that can actually work, and we do not rely on our instinct, but insted we think about our next moves

just to name a few, i think they would be enough for now.

 

[Buttons*]

well just because dogs have ears that doesn't mean we are dogs. does it. everyone kills, thats the stuff that keeps everything in place, nothing over populates. well appart from humans, see how we are different.

I suppose... but do you then thing that the urge to kill is not an animal instinct?

people are biologically people, just as dogs are biologically dogs.

Even if we share many biological similarities to dogs, I agree, we are not the same as dogs. But since we do have many of the similar biological features... it does seem a fair assumption to think that we are in fact, animal in some way.

exactly. we have been given free will while the other animals don't have it. they are just brainless creatures that god created to serve us. god himself has elevated humans from animals, if you think otherwise, then why are we the only species that have free will, out of the milions and posibly bilions of other species or creatures.

How do we know that animals don't have free will? If they are brainless, why do they have brains? (All animals have brains...) Besides, we can't ever know if animals do or do not have free will... that's sort of an assumption on your part.

i didn't want to go religious on this topic, seeing that YMG doesn't believe in a god creator (i think).

He may or may not... but even if he doesn't... he should still be able to understand your position. Do you feel that somehow (God or not) that we are endowed with some kind of divine spark? If this is the case, that might be a better angle to discuss your position. If not... it would be quite hard to discuss this topic without bringing a creator God into the picture and not sound too thick headed. We can't know that we are the only creatures with free will unless we look to religious scripture... but since scripture and science are mostly incompatible... it makes your case rather weak here.

everything looks alike to something else, but it doesn't mean that we are like them, because then we are like all the animals, ie a dog, a cat, a bird, a cow, and we would not be just an animal.

Well, "just" an animal seems rather harsh. We wouldn't be able to live without other animals. We all depend on each other, and we aren't really "above" anything that animals participate in: ie, killing, eating, pooping... etc. And I agree that there is a part of us which is aware and can (with the right urging) transcend our animal natures in some ways, but we can never really be free of being biologically animals.

what makes us a non animal are these;

we have free will;
we have beliefs (religions),
we have a brain that can actually work, and we do not rely on our instinct, but insted we think about our next moves

just to name a few, i think they would be enough for now.

But... we don't know for absolutely sure that we have free will. (especially if God is omniscient and knows everything we will do anyway - which is determinism). We do have beliefs and faiths and religions, but who is to say that creatures don't also have some sort of wavelength that we can't understand or don't know about? Humans, in many ways, actually do rely on instinct. Whether it comes out while protecting our families, by eating other people when it comes to starvation (Donner party), or simply jealous rage over losing a lover. We have the ability to think about our next moves, clearly, and this is a good point. However, we are not always logical, rational, or even reasonable when our emotions kick in. And even so... we don't know that animals are not capable of such things, even if we can't understand them. It's a very hard point to prove without religious scripture, and even harder to prove it while the scripture is in use!

Is there any other way you can try and convince me?

 

[Gharib]

first of all i'd like to thank you for this good diescussion

I suppose... but do you then thing that the urge to kill is not an animal instinct?

well everything kills, thats part of life, how would anything survive if nothing got killed, even if we were vegetarian we would kill the vegetables or plants.
killing is part of life, just like populating is part of life, human create families, so do animals, so we can't be animals just because we give birth, and some animals or birds lay eggs, but we don't, so how can we be called animals there?

Even if we share many biological similarities to dogs, I agree, we are not the same as dogs.But since we do have many of the similar biological features... it does seem a fair assumption to think that we are in fact, animal in some way

well i would call that a "diffrent species" we have similarities with trees too, we need air to survive, even fire cannot survive in a vacume. so then we are both tree and fire, we can't survive without air, or oxygen. just because you have 2 arms and i have one that doesn't make us a different species, and just because i kill just like some animal would, it doesn't mean that i am the same as that animal.

How do we know that animals don't have free will?

i made an example to YMG, i think about this but i'll do it again;

in a field there are 1000 cows, all die but 1, that cow wont even move a muscle to see what happened to the others, it will raise it's head to look around, but it will not do anything, it will continue to eat, and wont burrie the other cows.

in the same scenario we have 1000 people, 1 dies and we all rush like crazy to find out what happened and try to offer our help, we will leave our jobs, or our duties and try to help that person, and we will also burrie him/her.

now this isn't some brillian example, but it sort of makes sense.

and also we command all the animals, so this shows that we are the superior being, they obey us, meaning our wish is their will.

If they are brainless, why do they have brains? (All animals have brains...)

yes i know that they have brains, but their brain is to remember things, they cannot become creative, all they can do is remember some stuff, like who their owner is, or who their mate is etc.

Besides, we can't ever know if animals do or do not have free will... that's sort of an assumption on your part.

we do know, why do animals obey what we say to them, why don't you see a human obeying an animal.
or to go on the religious thing again, why do some people worship god and why some don't, why some eat only vegies and why some eat meat too, see we are able to change our life style, where as a lion could not become a vegetarisn, god has made it so, to kill the weaker animals, and even the lion is prey to the snake. the world goes round.

He may or may not... but even if he doesn't... he should still be able to understand your position. Do you feel that somehow (God or not) that we are endowed with some kind of divine spark?

whats this 'devine spark'? i can't understand to what you are reffering to. or what you are speaking of, sorry.

If this is the case, that might be a better angle to discuss your position. If not... it would be quite hard to discuss this topic without bringing a creator God into the picture and not sound too thick headed.

well i can go about it with a god creator if you wish or without it, if it makes it easier because YMG doesn't believe in god so he would just say that religions have made things up. god has given me enough knowledge to use other examples and things.

We can't know that we are the only creatures with free will unless we look to religious scripture...

no actually we just need to use our brain for a second and we have an answer, animals obey us nd we don't obey them.

you don't see a cheetah obeying a lion do you?

but since scripture and science are mostly incompatible... it makes your case rather weak here.

actually in islam science is part of our religion, without it, we could not be muslims, but the western scientists have gone to extremes to discover something and say that it has come to existence by itself. they make things up to contradict all religions, therefore everyone thinks that religion and science cannot be put together, but this is not true according to islam.

Well, "just" an animal seems rather harsh. We wouldn't be able to live without other animals. We all depend on each other, and we aren't really "above" anything that animals participate in: ie, killing, eating, pooping... etc.

we most defintely are, how many humans have died in the past 2 days? compare that to how many animals or meat we have eaten in the past 2 days, we kill animals by thousnads, not by tens or hundreds, where does all the meat come from, there are milions of butchers shops in the world, they must get their meat from somewhere, so they kill the animals. see we are on top of the chain, everything must conform to us, this is why god created the animals, they must obey us.

And I agree that there is a part of us which is aware and can (with the right urging) transcend our animal natures in some ways, but we can never really be free of being biologically animals.

but our biology has nothing to do with other species, all the creatures have similar biologies and yet a dog and a lion are 2 different species.

But... we don't know for absolutely sure that we have free will.

we as in us humans or did you mean to say the animals?

(especially if God is omniscient and knows everything we will do anyway - which is determinism).

that stuff is too comlicated, i can have a go at it if you wish, but not know, i'll do it some oter time.

We do have beliefs and faiths and religions, but who is to say that creatures don't also have some sort of wavelength that we can't understand or don't know about?

i can answer this but from my religious perspective, since we are talking about religion, would you like me to tell you what islam says about this?

Humans, in many ways, actually do rely on instinct.

a child has no idea what fire is, and yet as the child gets closer to the fire, his instinct tells him that it is bad for him, so the child does not touch the fire.
i'm not saying we do not have instinct, but once our brains starts to kick, we know what is black and what is white.

Whether it comes out while protecting our families, by eating other people when it comes to starvation (Donner party), or simply jealous rage over losing a lover. We have the ability to think about our next moves, clearly, and this is a good point. However, we are not always logical, rational, or even reasonable when our emotions kick in. And even so... we don't know that animals are not capable of such things, even if we can't understand them. It's a very hard point to prove without religious scripture, and even harder to prove it while the scripture is in use!

what can't be proven?
can i try?
whats the question?

Is there any other way you can try and convince me

does the above sort of work or not?
make a specific question if you wish and i can try to explain if i can.

 

[YmirGF]

Perhaps. We're still animals and we will always be. But our sense of awareness and ability to actually open up to an awareness of the divine is the part of us that is "non" animal.

Rubbish, my dear sweet Poowhawa. That is simply speculation on your part.

In a way, I believe all life understands the divine, but humans understand our own divine, the divine of others, and the capacity to even participate in "non-being" whilst being aware.... it's absolutely remarkable.

I understand what the point you are trying to make, however the rub is that you do not know for a fact that animals do not have a similar capacity. You are simply assuming that they do not. Yes, I agree that we are a remarkable species of primates but are we really much more remarkable than a Meerkat? Are we really much more remarkable than a dolphin? A cockroach?

 

[YmirGF]

so how can something so complex, which i, a smart human, smarter than chance cannot create a car, and yet chance can. a car can come to existence all by itself. and all the parts fit in exactly in perfect order, you do know that a car cannot come to existence by chance because it is to complex, you really do know this right?

I repeat my question from yesterday, Eselam, "Why does it follow that because we create, that we were created?" Answer that in a realistic, logical way and I may try to answer your innocent musings.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Originally Posted by eselam

what makes us a non animal are these;

we have free will;
we have beliefs (religions),
we have a brain that can actually work, and we do not rely on our instinct, but insted we think about our next moves

just to name a few, i think they would be enough for now.

we have free will;
*Actually, we don't have free will. Our environment constricts the number of choices that can be made. -NM-

we have beliefs (religions),
*Religion supports and satisfies our natural instincts toward tribalism. -NM-

we have a brain that can actually work, and we do not rely on our instinct, but insted we think about our next moves
*True. But same can be said for animals. A fair number of animals think and learn. Many times from their parents. -NM-

We are in every respect animals. -NM-

 

[Valjean]

Intelligence, free will, tool usage -- all irrelevant. All Continua (?), None exclusive to hominids.

Taxonomy is a question of genetics and physiology, not which traits are better developed in which species.
We are not rocks. We aren't plants or fungi. We are animals. We have normal, unremarkable animal anatomy and physiology. Our genetic relationship to other animals is well estblished.

How is this even an issue?