Are humans animals?

[Gharib]

This is indeed where your thoughts go wrong. Talking in intelligence, not every animal is as smart as the other. You will notice for example that a rat is much smarter than a dog is. Still both are animals. With other words, "animal" in definition alone does not determine a level of intelligence. So, calling someone an animal says nothing about their intelligence.

you call that intelligence? thats instict. a dog will not bite through a wall or timber, but a rat will. a rat will not chase a cat to eat, the cat will eat him instead, but the dog will. thats what they have been designed to do by god, simple really (i think i just over used this "simple" term)

 

[idea]

I thought this applicable...

There is something higher than the animal life; namely, the spiritual realm where there is love, the divinest attribute of the human soul. There are also sympathy, kindness and other attributes. 5

There is something within [man] which urges him to rise above himself, to control his environment, to master the body and all things physical and live in a higher and more beautiful world. 6
Man has a greater destiny than just a mere animal life. That is a touch of the spirit! Every man who has sensed that has a testimony himself and every woman also has a testimony herself, that man is a dual being. He has a body, just as all other animals have. But he has something that comes only from his Father in heaven, and he is entitled, is susceptible to whisperings, susceptible to influences from his Divine Parent, through the Holy Ghost, the medium between us and God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. 7

The choice is given, whether we live in the physical world as animals, or whether we use what earth offers us as a means of living in the spiritual world that will lead us back into the presence of God.
This means specifically:
Whether we choose selfishness or whether we will deny ourselves for the good of others;
Whether we will cherish indulgence of appetite [and] passion, or whether we will develop restraint and self-control.
Whether we choose licentiousness or chastity;
Whether we will encourage hate or develop love;
Whether [we] practice cruelty or kindness;
Whether [we] be cynical or sanguine—hopeful;
Whether we be traitorous—disloyal to those who love us, to our country, to the Church or to God—or whether we will be loyal;
Whether we be deceitful, or honest, our word our bond;
Whether [we have] a slanderous or a controlled tongue. 10
Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whim of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life. 11

What a travesty on human nature when a person or a group of persons, though endowed with a consciousness of being able to rise in human dignity to realms indiscernible by lower creatures, yet will still be content to obey animal instincts, without putting forth efforts to experience the joy of goodness, purity, self-mastery, and faith that spring from compliance to moral rules! How tragic it is when man, made a “little lower than the angels and crowned with glory and honour” (Psalm 8:5), will content himself to grovel on the animal plane. 12

LDS.org - Relief Society Chapter Detail - The Dual Nature of Man

 

[Gharib]

I thought this applicable...

one quick question; i'll just get to the point, are you with me or against me?

that post doesn't do me any good, because i don't get the point.

 

[Valjean]

didn't gas form into amino acids, then that formed into bcteria, then that formed into something better and bigger, and so on and so forth, untill the human species was reached. tell me if this isn't how it happened.

What do you mean by "bigger and better?" Size is not better. Complexity is not better. The only "better" in evolution is reproductive success. Those that are better at reproducing thrive. Evolution is survival of the reproductively successful.

Again. There are no hierachies. Nothing is intrinsically "better." Everything's been evolving for millions of years.

You also seem to equate intelligence with quality. Why? Why doesn't a bird's capacity for flight, a dog's sense of smell or a chimp's hand-eye co-ordination make them better?
Our "intelligence," frankly, does not seem to be serving us well, if you ask me. When we're not destroying ourselves we're destroying our planet. How does this make us "best?"

 

[YmirGF]

Our "intelligence," frankly, does not seem to be serving us well, if you ask me. When we're not destroying ourselves we're destroying our planet. How does this make us "best?"

Now, now, Seyorni, don't confuse the youngster. I do find the willfull ignorance demonstrated by Eselam to be fascinating however. Like most delusional people, he thinks that everything thinks just like him and so he is able to maintain the charade.

 

[methylatedghosts]

What do you mean by "bigger and better?" Size is not better. Complexity is not better. The only "better" in evolution is reproductive success. Those that are better at reproducing thrive. Evolution is survival of the reproductively

I'm thinking that that'd make grass the most succesful species on the planet - it's naturally found, and able to grow in every country, on every continent - much more succesful than pretty much anything else.

 

[darkendless]

I'm thinking that that'd make grass the most succesful species on the planet - it's naturally found, and able to grow in every country, on every continent - much more succesful than pretty much anything else.

What kind of grass are we talking about here Luke? Grass grass or happy grass?

 

[McBell]

who's clueless?

 

[Gharib]

i was actually waiting for someone to make a similar post to this, not anyone in particular but just anyone.

What do you mean by "bigger and better?"

human-bacteria, bigger and better means stronger animals, where no one is safe. even the stronges has a weakness. the lion is the king of the jungle and it is stronger than all other animals, but it can be killed by a snake. so bigger and better means circulation, where only the wisest will survive or die from natural causes would be a better thing to say.

Size is not better.

in most cases it is. can a dog kill a lion? no
can a lion kill an elephant? no. etc...

Complexity is not better. The only "better" in evolution is reproductive success. Those that are better at reproducing thrive. Evolution is survival of the reproductively successful.

yes thats one half, the other is the strongest against the weakest. a sick monkey will not be able to search for food, but a healthy monkey will, thus the strong beats the weak.

Again. There are no hierachies. Nothing is intrinsically "better." Everything's been evolving for millions of years.

yes partially true. within the animal world there is no hierachy, just as there is none in the vegetation world, and the human world. but when the three are compared, it goe something like this;
humans
animals
plants. do you agree or not?

You also seem to equate intelligence with quality. Why? Why doesn't a bird's capacity for flight, a dog's sense of smell or a chimp's hand-eye co-ordination make them better?

it does, but in their own environment to survive. all the creatures in the world (excluding humans) live in perfect harmony. now if we, the humans, were "animals" just as stated by YMG, then why is it that when humans enter the environment we ruin everything, if we were really animals then we would fit right in with the rest of the animals and live in perfect harmony just as they would live if we weren't present.

every creature is created by god to serve us, even snakes serve us (they are the killers of the rats, so are the cats, this is just one of many limitless examples). we are the rulers, we rule everything on land and at sea with the permission of god.

if you don't agree, then why are humans the only creatures to disrupt the peace and harmony of the rest of the countless creatures out there? if we our self are just another animal.

When we're not destroying ourselves we're destroying our planet. How does this make us "best?"

thats what i'm saying, we do not fit in with the animals, we are not a part of their kingdom. we are the blood shedders as Allah states in the quran, we are his replacers on earth, but we destroy more than we fix. we do not blend in with the animals nor the insects nor the plants.

 

[Gharib]

Now, now, Seyorni, don't confuse the youngster.

no no thats fine i'm not confused, thank you for your concern, appreciate it

I do find the willfull ignorance demonstrated by Eselam to be fascinating however.

so this is how it will be, when someone younger than yourself is right, they are ignorant because you are older and "smarter" and we should listen to you.

you know, from all the people that i can think of at the moment who are well into their fifties or above are all ignorant people, i cannot think of one person in that age group or higher to have ever accepted the word of someone younger. out of all those people, i though you would be different considering that you are debating with people from around the wrold. but i guess you are not one tiny bit different than any other old man who thinks he is always right. too bad, i though we were actually going to be discussing our views like grown ups, but i guess some people grow up and then they grow down again.

oh well thats life.

Like most delusional people, he thinks that everything thinks just like him and so he is able to maintain the charade.

i think you might want to rephrase this and related to your self, it doesn't fit me. in no possible way does it really fit me.

you can't handle being corrected by someone younger, i suggest you start an anger managment program.

 

[YmirGF]

so this is how it will be, when someone younger than yourself is right, they are ignorant because you are older and "smarter" and we should listen to you.

Eselam, there is one tiny problem with this, and that is you are not right. I chose to use the term willful ignorance because many other people have tried unsuccessfully to get you to see reason. You insist on your own limited viewpoint as being correct. I don't see anyone else of any note arguing over these points. This isn't about me, it's about you and your penchant for making unsupportable statements.

you know, from all the people that i can think of at the moment who are well into their fifties or above are all ignorant people, i cannot think of one person in that age group or higher to have ever accepted the word of someone younger.

What you fail to grasp Eselam, is that this says far more about you than it does about the people you think are ignorant. I will predict that when you are in your early 30's you will begin to understand how foolish you were when you were younger. At that point you will begin to appreciate just how clever those old ignorant people were all along. It's a natural process and everyone goes through it. I know, I did.

out of all those people, i though you would be different considering that you are debating with people from around the wrold. but i guess you are not one tiny bit different than any other old man who thinks he is always right.

This might be news to you, Eselam, but I am one of the few people on RF who openly admits that I could be wrong. I almost never claim that I am right and quite intentionally leave myself wiggle room to allow for error. If you look back on many of my older posts you will find I them quite often with, "What would I know?" or "so it seems to me" etc...

For the record, I generally do not run about making outlandish unsupportable comments that no one else agrees with.

too bad, i though we were actually going to be discussing our views like grown ups, but i guess some people grow up and then they grow down again.

oh well thats life.

Get used to it, son. Life is filled with little pitfalls like this when reality does not measure up to our expectations. That is why I usually tell people to look at things realistically and check their expectations at the door.

i think you might want to rephrase this and related to your self, it doesn't fit me. in no possible way does it really fit me.

Eselam, I am quite fond of psychology and I'd suggest that if you were honest with yourself you will understand what I am saying does have some validity. It can be painful to one's ego to admit to themselves that they are being narrow-minded. Given that only one person has responded is a vaguely positive way to your ongoing comments that does speak volumes in an of itself. As I have said many times, Muslims are caught in a psychological straightjacket. It is also very difficult to change deeply held beliefs. If you were to provide information from credible sources other than the Qur'an I just might be inclined to listen. So far, the science is stacked against your primitive thinking.

you can't handle being corrected by someone younger, i suggest you start an anger managment program.

Again, Eselam, if I thought you were right, I would have no difficulty admitting it. The simple fact is that you are not. You pretend that many people are simply not inclined to say so and cited that RF has 17,000 member and only 34 have responded so far with a Yes vote. The problem with this is that there are only about 100 active members at any given point (if that, actually) and so these numbers are actually quite high. That is a statistical reality that you cannot just blow off.

Again, show me the thinking of a credible scientist who is not a Muslim who claims what you claim and I will seriously consider what you are saying.

 

[methylatedghosts]

What kind of grass are we talking about here Luke? Grass grass or happy grass?

Grass grass of course! Sheesh!

 

[Gharib]

Eselam, there is one tiny problem with this, and that is you are not right.

ofcourse, i'm a muslim, when did you last speak to a muslim who was even a tiny bit right? we are just another animal species right?

I chose to use the term willful ignorance because many other people have tried unsuccessfully to get you to see reason.

yes, i oppened the thread about evolution, many people said i have no knowledge of evolution so i agree, they did have way more knowledge than me. your stament is wrong, with a big W a big R, O N G.

You insist on your own limited viewpoint as being correct. I don't see anyone else of any note arguing over these points.

thats because you are all accpeting false information, they are not my view points, if i was debating this topic simly because i say i am right, then i would truely be the most ignorant person on the surface of the earth, i'm giving examples that relate to this topic, are part of evolution, are part of biology and are part of logic.

This isn't about me, it's about you and your penchant for making unsupportable statements.

you are really showing your ignorance here. i won't devote my self to science or biology, i do however, have basic knowldge of many things, so why waste my time looking up google for supportable statements when you will ignore them, whats the point in that?

What you fail to grasp Eselam, is that this says far more about you than it does about the people you think are ignorant. I will predict that when you are in your early 30's you will begin to understand how foolish you were when you were younger. At that point you will begin to appreciate just how clever those old ignorant people were all along. It's a natural process and everyone goes through it. I know, I did.

those old ignorant people were and will always remain ignorant, how often do you see an old man accepting facts or truth from a youngster. for 53 years you have believed that huamsn are animals (don't know if correct) so to have me come here and in a matter of just a few posts to prove your belief wrong, how in the world will you accept it? and what if the foolisheness fails to become inteligence, then you are doing or are exactly as i said you were, just another old person who does not like to be corrected by a youngster.

This might be news to you, Eselam, but I am one of the few people on RF who openly admits that I could be wrong. I almost never claim that I am right and quite intentionally leave myself wiggle room to allow for error. If you look back on many of my older posts you will find I them quite often with, "What would I know?" or "so it seems to me" etc...

if so then i am one of those people that make that "few" list. i always say to people to correct me if i'm wrong, but when i'm right theres nothing to correct. i personally would rather have people to correct me, instead of me having to correct others. you yourself are of quite an old age (not that you are old but the age is pretty big) so you having believe in something false all your life is just shattering to me, to have to correct you, considering that you are a wise man. but when you do not wish to accept your mistakes then the only thing left for me is to prove you wrong.

For the record, I generally do not run about making outlandish unsupportable comments that no one else agrees with.

oh really? with how many muslims have you debated lately? we all believe that your statements are incorrect (sorry for speaking for everyone) and by my memorie there are well over 10 or 15 muslims here, so if we continue with this statement of yours, you too can say the complete same thing about me, so don't ever be thinking that you always have people that agree with you, just as a future thing from me to you.

Get used to it, son. Life is filled with little pitfalls like this when reality does not measure up to our expectations. That is why I usually tell people to look at things realistically and check their expectations at the door.

you know most people say this "do as i say, but don't do what i do" and at the moment thats what you are sounding like.

Eselam, I am quite fond of psychology and I'd suggest that if you were honest with yourself you will understand what I am saying does have some validity.

no it doesn't, do you have any supportive statements to verify this?

It can be painful to one's ego to admit to themselves that they are being narrow-minded.

don't have an ego (don't know what it is) and am not narrow-minded

Given that only one person has responded is a vaguely positive way to your ongoing comments that does speak volumes in an of itself.

thats right, that person is a person of understanding, a person who isn't affraid to be corrected, i guess you and i will never be like that, will we?

As I have said many times, Muslims are caught in a psychological straightjacket.

yes, YOU have said it, but where's your supporting statement?

i can say the same thing about people like yourself, but you will ask for a supporting statement, so know lets see them, if you speak the truth.

It is also very difficult to change deeply held beliefs. If you were to provide information from credible sources other than the Qur'an I just might be inclined to listen. So far, the science is stacked against your primitive thinking.

wrong again, the science is stacked in favour of me. go answer my previous posts that i made to other people and when you finish we shall speak about science and on whos side it is.

Again, Eselam, if I thought you were right, I would have no difficulty admitting it.

i'm not asking you to think that i am right, i am asking you to accept the truth, reality. that very thing you yourself tell people to look at before they enter the door.

The simple fact is that you are not.

heard that before, it sound furmiliar.

You pretend that many people are simply not inclined to say so and cited that RF has 17,000 member and only 34 have responded so far with a Yes vote.

i don't know if 17000 is actually correct.

The problem with this is that there are only about 100 active members at any given point (if that, actually) and so these numbers are actually quite high. That is a statistical reality that you cannot just blow off.

so it only counts when that 100 number is displayed in the online page. what about the page that says total members. when people go to the polls, everyone votes not just those who happen be close by, by chance. this is a statistical reality that you cannot just blow off.

Again, show me the thinking of a credible scientist who is not a Muslim who claims what you claim and I will seriously consider what you are saying.

of course a non muslim, you cannot handle the truth from a muslim, so if someone was to correct you, i bet you will suffer a stroke or something (hope you never do) if it was done by a muslim, there there, see you just proved to everyone that you will never accept anything i say even though it may be the truth.

 

[McBell]

ofcourse, i'm a muslim, when did you last speak to a muslim who was even a tiny bit right?

Last Saturday at the local Mosque.
We had a lengthy discussion about how far to many Muslims on the internet are just plain idiots.
He said he can't stand it because they give Muslims in general a bad name.
And no, your name didn't come up.
Though I was sorely tempted.

we are just another animal species right?

That is correct.
Just like the Christians, homosexuals, Germans, and every other group of people that exist, did exist, and ever will exist.

 

[Gharib]

Last Saturday at the local Mosque.
We had a lengthy discussion about how far to many Muslims on the internet are just plain idiots.
He said he can't stand it because they give Muslims in general a bad name.
And no, your name didn't come up.
Though I was sorely tempted.

you go to the mosque? who ever said that is a wise man, he is correct.
they do give them a bad name, because most people are not used to dealing with a lot of people at the same time, (that was me at first).
i'm surprised you didn't tell them about me, really dissapointing :sad4:

That is correct.
Just like the Christians, homosexuals, Germans, and every other group of people that exist, did exist, and ever will exist.

sure anything you say so. what about plants, are we plants too.

 

[McBell]

you go to the mosque?

not on a regular basis.
However one of my new neighbors is Muslim and he invited my family to a get together of some sort.

who ever said that is a wise man, he is correct.
they do give them a bad name, because most people are not used to dealing with a lot of people at the same time, (that was me at first).
i'm surprised you didn't tell them about me, really dissapointing :sad4:

Actually, we were talking about those who act as though they were just released from Muslim School and are out to show the world what they learned, but they didn't pay enough attention during class to know what they are talking about.

You know, much like you in this thread.

Of course, the conversation was not limited to Muslims.

sure anything you say so. what about plants, are we plants too.

No.
Humans are not in the plant kingdom.
Humans are in the animal kingdom.
That makes humans animals.

Your dislike of that basic fact does not change it.

 

[Gharib]

not on a regular basis.
However one of my new neighbors is Muslim and he invited my family to a get together of some sort.

good to hear, thats actually a good thing , considering that i have to ignore most of your posts.

Actually, we were talking about those who act as though they were just released from Muslim School and are out to show the world what they learned, but they didn't pay enough attention during class to know what they are talking about.

i see, yes many people think they are smart untill they step out from their own little world.

You know, much like you in this thread.

i too thought i was pretty smart on all things at first, but now thats changed. and instead i have to deal with people like you whom i have to ignore. and i in this thread are not what you think, i'm simply trying to tell people the truth. i hear from a lot of people that muslims never accept anything, but this just shows that the world goes round and round.

Of course, the conversation was not limited to Muslims.

yes i agree, he must have mentioned something about you.

No.
Humans are not in the plant kingdom.
Humans are in the animal kingdom.
That makes humans animals.

why? because you say so?
if and i mean if, humans were animals then why is there no peace and harmony in the world, all these problems are due to the existence of man, if we were animals we would fit right in, wouldn't we?

Your dislike of that basic fact does not change it.

i'm not debating here just so i can win. that would be stupid of anyone to do so. if i was to lie about this just because i wan't to be right, i will have to answer for this in judgment day, now i don't want to be responsible for lying to all of you. i'm simply pasing on the truth. you don't want to hear about it, thats fine just say so.

 

[McBell]

good to hear, thats actually a good thing , considering that i have to ignore most of your posts.

I understand that you have to ignore what you dislike, but ignoring the truth does not make it go away.

i too thought i was pretty smart on all things at first, but now thats changed. and instead i have to deal with people like you whom i have to ignore. and i in this thread are not what you think, i'm simply trying to tell people the truth. i hear from a lot of people that muslims never accept anything, but this just shows that the world goes round and round.

What truth are telling people in this thread?
That you believe/think that humans are not in the animal kingdom?
That you believe/think that humans are in a kingdom all their own?
This is nothing more than your you belief which has no basis in science.

The truth is, you are free to make whatever claims you like.
However, I am also free to tell you that your belief is nothing more than your belief.

yes i agree, he must have mentioned something about you.

Actually he did.
He said it was refreshing to have a neighbor that did not think he was a terrorist simply because he is from Pakistan.

why? because you say so?

I am merely agreeing with the scientific community.

if and i mean if, humans were animals then why is there no peace and harmony in the world, all these problems are due to the existence of man, if we were animals we would fit right in, wouldn't we?

What are you talking about?
You ever watch the Discovery Channel?
How about Animal Planet?

If you did you would understand that animals are all the time killing and/or eating each other.

i'm not debating here just so i can win. that would be stupid of anyone to do so.

I agree.
I would not call what you are doing "debating" either.

if i was to lie about this just because i wan't to be right, i will have to answer for this in judgment day, now i don't want to be responsible for lying to all of you. i'm simply pasing on the truth. you don't want to hear about it, thats fine just say so.

But you are not passing off any truth other than it is true you think humans are not animals.

 

[Azakel]

What are you talking about?
You ever watch the Discovery Channel?
How about Animal Planet?

If you did you would understand that animals are all the time killing and/or eating each other.

And some animals also have a tendency to destroy there environment around them. Not as bad has we do now a days, though ^_^

 

[methylatedghosts]

so it only counts when that 100 number is displayed in the online page. what about the page that says total members. when people go to the polls, everyone votes not just those who happen be close by, by chance. this is a statistical reality that you cannot just blow off.

Statistically speaking, 30 is the minimum sample size needed to see if something's statistically significant. Also, just because there's 100 people, doesn't mean that all of them need to vote, there's also the option of not voting at all.