Are Jews still God's Chosen People?

[free spirit]

Acts 16:3 - Object Lesson in Reasonableness

Timothy's circumcision was not for the benefit of the Jewish Christians, it was so the non-Christian Jews would not dismiss Timothy out-of-hand, thus preventing him from being effective in preaching and teaching them. In the non-Christian Jew's mind, Timothy would still be unclean. Paul and Timothy were only taking into account the sensibilities of those who have not accepted the Christ yet. Thus as he said in 1 Co 9:20, "To the Jews I became as a Jew; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law."

Circumcision was verified as not binding for Christians, but in this case it was to the advantage of preaching work to not offend those they were preaching to. It was a case of Paul showing reasonableness regarding non-believers. If I was preaching in a Jewish community I would adjust to eat kosher, so as to not offend them while I was there.

Same argument of reasonableness was made for within the Christian congregations, when discussing meat sold at the meat market after it was formally used in idol worship. Nothing was inherently wrong with the meat, but some former idol-worshipers would have sensitive consciences and we would not want to disturb them by being brazen. Where permitable we carry the burden of other people's sensitivities. On the other hand, those who are sensitive should not insist on their standard for other Christians.

Regarding Timothy's circumcision, it would have been a different story if there was a directive NOT to get circumcised. No, the ruling was it was no longer binding, not that it was no longer permitted.

According to you then Paul was a bigger Hypocrite than Peter, because Paul wrote against circumcision in Galatians to the extent to say, "if you receive circumcision Christ is no a benefit to you, you have fallen from grace" No you a wrong, you are defending the scriptures against the integrity of an apostle of God.
Here is another lie for you co comment on.
In the book of Acts 13:22 we read: “And after He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.’” If we read the above verse as it is, we can all be forgiven for thinking that this verse is referring to David as the “man after God’s heart”, but that is a gross misidentification because it was not King David who did all of God’s will. We all are aware of the sins of David; they are well documented, and when one commits a sin he is not doing God’s will. On the other hand, Jesus did do all of God’s will because we all know that He never committed sin, which is also well documented.
Hebrews 10:7-10 is very clear about the importance of Jesus doing God’s will, for without His accomplished will there is no salvation. In John 8:29 Jesus said, “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” Therefore I believe that Acts 13:22-23 is speaking about a man found in the loins of David, whose delight is to do God’s will, and verse 23 conclusively confirms that the man after God’s heart is Jesus, by saying: “From the offspring of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Saviour Jesus.”
I believe Acts 13:22, should therefore read: “I have found in the loins of David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, Who will do all My will”. It is confirmed in Psalm 40:8, for we read: “I delight to do Thy will, O My God; Thy law is within My heart.” So you see, we can be doubly sure that the man after God’s heart was going to do all of God’s will, and not only some of it, as David did. You may ask if it is my intention to belittle King David? No, on the contrary, but I am trying to do as my spirit suggests and that is to redirect that glory toward whom that glory is due. (Confirmed by John 16:13-15.)

 

[free spirit]

There are around 13 million Jews right now around the world. When we add to that number all the Jews who had existed during the last 2000 years, we end up with a heck of a lot of Jews. Paul is the only Jew that understood the Old Testament? All these Jews should accept Paul on his word. A man who never met Jesus. A man who knows nothing about Jesus before he died. A man who can't even quote Jesus. Jesus must have said and done something with his life, but Paul doesn't seem to know anything about it.

Maybe the same reason as to why some of them did not believe Christ.

 

[Kolibri]

At this point I am thinking, why bother? I mean there is no reason to clutter up this thread debating this further. If anyone is truly curious, they can start a conversation instead. I do not have "an unhealthy fascination with arguments and debates about words." (1 Tim 6:4) And as Paul wrote to Titus, "But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile." (Titus 3:9).

I fully expect those of the Jewish faith here can relate with the last verse, even if it is not one they hold as sacred.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

At this point I thinking, why bother? I mean there is no reason to clutter up this thread debating this further. If anyone is truly curious, they can start a conversation instead. I do not have "an unhealthy fascination with arguments and debates about words." (1 Tim 6:4) And as Paul wrote to Titus, "But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile." (Titus 3:9).

I fully expect those of the Jewish faith here can relate with the last verse, even if it is not one they hold as sacred.

Amen

 

[dantech]

Thank you, It is the best explanation to date about what does mean to be a Torah observing man.
By the above explanation I understand that the believer has to live a life of full Torah observance to please God. That is good if human were able to fully observe the Torah. As you know the law once is broken, is broken and there is a penalty for that.
Let me explain the matter this way: Are you acquainted with all of the laws of your country in order to observe them? and if not Why not? No, you do not know all of the laws, but you live your life unafraid because you know what is just, and morally correct, you do thing all in good faith, right! With God is better than that, for He is with you guiding you. I am sorry I cannot explain it any better.

Your example doesn't work. The civil law couldn't care less whether you knew that you weren't allowed to murder someone or not. In any case, you will go to jail. You will have to face the consequences of your actions. It's your responsibility to learn the law. You can't run a red light and then tell the cop "I didn't know..".

 

[pearl]

Open to Jews & Christians please. Are Jews still God's chosen people? Are they not.
Please explain to me why they are or are not. Cite Scripture please, even a little.
I'm here to learn, not to start arguments with Jews & Christians.

If they are not, then God is a liar, and that is impossible!

 

[Levite]

Thank you, It is the best explanation to date about what does mean to be a Torah observing man.
By the above explanation I understand that the believer has to live a life of full Torah observance to please God. That is good if human were able to fully observe the Torah. As you know the law once is broken, is broken and there is a penalty for that.
Let me explain the matter this way: Are you acquainted with all of the laws of your country in order to observe them? and if not Why not? No, you do not know all of the laws, but you live your life unafraid because you know what is just, and morally correct, you do thing all in good faith, right! With God is better than that, for He is with you guiding you. I am sorry I cannot explain it any better.

So first of all "human beings" don't have to keep the commandments, because the Torah wasn't given to the whole human race. Just those humans who are the Jewish People.

Second of all, you keep essentially restating that God expects us to keep every commandment flawlessly, and I keep telling you that notion is completely foreign to Judaism. We don't believe God expects perfection from us because He created us, and therefore knows we are incapable of perfection. And since we don't believe God is unreasonable, or trying to trap us with impossible demands, we believe that explains why Torah includes a system of repentance that, if properly followed, works. It consistently results in God forgiving us and absolving us of transgression-- even though both we and He know we will inevitably transgress again.

It is not the successful keeping of every single commandment that pleases God, it is the wholehearted attempt to follow them as best we can, studying Torah and practicing introspection along the way, so that we improve our attemps and learn from our failures.

 

[Brickjectivity]

For the life of me, I do not know how you get that. However I will read 1Samuel and get back to you.

Well I take you as a message to me, so if you aren't thinking what I'm thinking its not a big deal. A sincere person like yourself who has overcome many obstacles and even written a book (which I have never done) is someone I respect. I'm not surprised though that we don't understand each other, and I take you as a message not just what you are saying. To me you are like one of the telephone cables above the street, full of messages not only carrying one message. God would not be limited to words, so there is more to you (the message) than just what you say. Two people can talk about the same things and not know it, just like telephone cables can carry thousands of messages at one time. For the Bible verses we were talking about, I think of them as connected; but that is just my own point of view of it.

 

[JM2C]

What I am saying is that the"bible is not inerrant" God is the one that is inerrant.

Where do you think the bible came from or how it came about? I do believe that from Genesis to Revelation are the very words of God or came from God, otherwise my faith is in vain. Who do you think wrote Genesis? Moses did, but he did not appear until Exodus, so there is only one conclusion to that, and that is, God spoke to him.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[viole]

Where do you think the bible came from or how it came about? I do believe that from Genesis to Revelation are the very words of God or came from God, otherwise my faith is in vain. Who do you think wrote Genesis? Moses did, but he did not appear until Exodus, so there is only one conclusion to that, and that is, God spoke to him.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Do you have different versions of the Bible? Some with those corrections and others without?

You know, like Bible V 2.0?

Ciao

- viole

 

[pearl]

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But nowhere does it state that Scripture is, by itself sufficient, but 'profitable'. We do not have the 'very' word of God, but God's
will communicated through the mystical experiences of others, in this case Abraham and Moses. This 'mystical' encounter must be made known to the rest of mankind. And this revelation must be made known to man in a way proportionate to man's way of being. This divine truth must be in some way incarnate. It must be adapted to man's way of thinking and living for him to grasp it, from the natural which is known, to the supernatural which is unknown. To communicate in a way that makes use of man's institutions, customs, and 'transform' them. Man's way of dealing with man was through pacts, deals, covenants, so when God made the Covenant with Abraham he was not introducing anything new or foreign, but took what they knew and transformed it to a higher reality. It was the extraordinary event of Exodus, what God did for his people, that gives Gen its meaning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It's always fun to watch a bunch of self-proclaimed experts opine on the Jews based on their quote-mining of Christian apologetics.

 

[JM2C]

Do you have different versions of the Bible? Some with those corrections and others without?

You know, like Bible V 2.0?

Ciao

- viole

Bible V 2.0?

 

[JM2C]

It's always fun to watch a bunch of self-proclaimed experts opine on the Jews based on their quote-mining of Christian apologetics.

What is wrong with that? We are here to learn.

 

[viole]

Bible V 2.0?

Yes, the one with the anticipated bug fixes.

Ciao

- viole

 

[free spirit]

Your example doesn't work. The civil law couldn't care less whether you knew that you weren't allowed to murder someone or not. In any case, you will go to jail. You will have to face the consequences of your actions. It's your responsibility to learn the law. You can't run a red light and then tell the cop "I didn't know..".

Ignorance is not excuse, you are correct on this point. You have missed my illustration completely.

 

[JM2C]

Yes, the one with the anticipated bug fixes.

Ciao

- viole

Never heard of it. Can you tell more about it maybe we can learn something new today. Again, WE ARE HERE TO LEARN.

 

[viole]

Never heard of it. Can you tell more about it maybe we can learn something new today. Again, WE ARE HERE TO LEARN.

Well, you said that the Bible is prone to corrections. I think it is a verse of the Bible itself you quoted (2Ti 3:16). I hope that the correction does not involve only this particular verse.

So, where is the version with these corrections?

Ciao

- viole

 

[free spirit]

So first of all "human beings" don't have to keep the commandments, because the Torah wasn't given to the whole human race. Just those humans who are the Jewish People.

Second of all, you keep essentially restating that God expects us to keep every commandment flawlessly, and I keep telling you that notion is completely foreign to Judaism. We don't believe God expects perfection from us because He created us, and therefore knows we are incapable of perfection. And since we don't believe God is unreasonable, or trying to trap us with impossible demands, we believe that explains why Torah includes a system of repentance that, if properly followed, works. It consistently results in God forgiving us and absolving us of transgression-- even though both we and He know we will inevitably transgress again.

It is not the successful keeping of every single commandment that pleases God, it is the wholehearted attempt to follow them as best we can, studying Torah and practicing introspection along the way, so that we improve our attemps and learn from our failures.

1) God show no partiality, the law is the will and character of God, it was given to the Jews to make them better than the rest of us. Because they were chosen to bring the Christ into the world, therefore they had to be educated about God above other people.
2) Now I know were the Roman Catholic get their ongoing confession routine. Come on..... you are not serious, are you! If you are you are making God a joke.
3) If we follow your reasoning God will have to apologise to all of those who came out of Egypt.

 

[dantech]

Ignorance is not excuse, you are correct on this point. You have missed my illustration completely.

You said: "Are you acquainted with all the laws of your country", as if not knowing the laws makes it okay for you to fail at observing all of them. Next, you insinuate (using Christian scripture) that when you have a collection of laws, if a single one isn't observed, that we've failed completely. We have been responding that this concept is inexistent in Judaism.
Let me explain quickly and simply, and then maybe you'll just stop trying to convince Jews that Christian scripture is what should matter to them.

1)Jews believe that regardless of how many sins you have committed in your life, that you can always repent if you are sincere in your will to repent.
2)Jews believe that NO ONE, and that includes God himself, can repent for you or clear you of your sins except for yourself.
3)Jews don't believe that repentance means putting your faith in someone.
4)Jews believe that to repent, you basically need to stop committing sins. Knowing what is a sin is your responsibility. It is impossible to know everything by heart. If you do make it an effort to learn, then God, in all his fairness, will forgive you for the ones you haven't learned about yet.
5)A popular Jewish teaching teaches that you will know your repentance is complete when you are put in a position in which you ordinarily would sin, but you don't.
6)Jews could not care less (regarding themselves) about what is written in Christian Scripture, though they may be interested just for general knowledge.

Fellow Jews could correct me if I am wrong.