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Are Muslim-related troubles caused mainly by a lack of education?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I seem to recall that much of Roman and Greek philosophy would be lost had it not been for the translations of the notable ones into Arabic..

Transmission of the Greek Classics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Greek Sources in Arabic and Islamic Philosophy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Yes. From the time of Mehmed II all the way up to pre-Islamic revolution Iran, many of the Classic Greek philosophies were taught and found throughout society.
Something that is really bizarre though, is apparently Heidegger was a big influence in the Islamic revolution, and to a lesser degree Nietzsche. I haven't found the book that discusses this yet, but apparently it's there.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Considering Muslims have made some monumental contributions to science, health, and math, personally I would hesitate to say it's a problem with Islam. And there are many Muslims from Middle East studying and teaching in Universities throughout the West. And, of course, Arabs do not constitute the entirety of the Muslim population.
I thought of the early "golden" age concerning Arabic culture, and or the Muslim religion. Definitely there were invaluable contributions worth mentioning.

Based on what's going on today, it appears it's the religion right now that is severely hobbling future advancements and achievements more than anything else than I can think of.

If it's not Islam, then what's changed over the centuries that created notable stagnation?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I couldn't help but notice a shift in the OP...The title itself is nothing more than bigoted nonsense to me.
Tom

There are many more Muslims living outside of Arabia then within it...The middle-east is an utter mess but it's vitally important to differentiate between the mess in that region and the more than a billion Muslims who live elsewhere.

It's also important to differentiate between those in the Middle East who are deranged and violent, and those in the Middle East who are peaceful and do not have ridiculous requirements such as having their women be completely covered from head to toe.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong,
but it looks like you're saying his OP is wrong because he used the wrong label.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Let's see: Many Muslims are Westerners as are many Jews.

Given the rising level of anti-Semitism in the world today, you're probably right that Muslims are steretyped more than Jews but that's not a very helpful claim.

Not to imply that this means much, but the fact remains that I have to rely on forum members to even remind me that anti-semitism still exists at all, let alone that it is rising.

From where I stand, stereotyping Muslims looks like is a much greater concern - all the more so because such stereotypes may well be called justified quite often.


Christianity is also based on proselytizing and sometimes aggressively - "Rice Christians" comes to mind. I have Christians showing up on my doorstep telling me I'm going to hell unless I adopt their religion but not Muslims. So here Muslims score better than Christians.

This looks very much like a matter of unrepresentative sample, though. I don't think Christians are noticeably worse than Muslims in this regard. They are just somewhat easier to meet and a bit more outspoken in our direct personal experience.


Daesh (ISIL) wants a Caliphate in the middle east so wanting a state is not a mark of anything in particular.

Excuse me, what do you mean here? You seem to have forgotten the core points you had to express.


My Muslim friends goals are the same as other Americans - live a decent life in freedom and democracy. And given the disastrous refugee problem in Syria, I take it that most there want the same thing - to live in peace.

Of course. Everyone wants to live in peace. Alas, far too often that becomes an attempted justification for all sorts of abuses and shames.


There are more Muslim "fundamentalists" (word does not really fit Muslims) but there are Christian Dominionists running around so the question between them is not their goal but method and numbers. And there are Jews with the same belief in Israel so all three religions have that problem to one degree or another.

True enough, but I don't think glossing over their particularities is very helpful.

From what I know of all three doctrines, there are particularly difficult challenges in the attempt of being a non-supremacist Muslim, to a degree that is not all that comparable to those of a Christian or a practicioner of Judaism.

If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means tell me about it.


The problems we see are partly due to Saudi's funding the most rigid interpretations of Islam including setting up schools all over the area to indoctrinate the young. And the governments in the middle east are for the most part disasters who are not providing for the people. One other point is that we used to hear about exporting Communism and today it's exporting fanatical Islam and that is indeed a problem.

I don't particularly disagree, but I think we should deal with the doctrinary challenges as well.


As to a Jewish topic: there are believers in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" which not so long ago had many many copies printed by Henry Ford and is still believed by many today.

I thought the Protocols were widely exposed as malicious frauds?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Probably not nearly as isolated as you think they are. Obviously there are some who are extremely hostile and violent towards Western ideas and Westerners, but less obvious, likely do to a lack of media coverage, is there are some who have adopted many Western idea, do not live in heavily repressive societies and cities, and they even get along just fine with people when they come to the West. There are many Middle Eastern Muslims who are fundamentally opposed to groups like ISIS, the Taliban, and Boko Haraam because of their extreme oppression, intolerance, and violent ways.

I know a few myself, but I think that is not really the matter.

Instead, I think we should ask how prepared is Islamic doctrine to encourage people to treat non-Muslims in a respectful way for reasons other than a lack of political power.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Not to imply that this means much, but the fact remains that I have to rely on forum members to even remind me that anti-semitism still exists at all, let alone that it is rising.

From where I stand, stereotyping Muslims looks like is a much greater concern - all the more so because such stereotypes may well be called justified quite often.

To me "quite often" is a problem. There have been attempts to find how what percentage of Muslims support terrorism and counter-arguments that the polling is inherently a problem. There have been polls that state that 12% of Muslims support terrorism under certain circumstances and other polls which purport to show it's not that high a number if you consider the attitudes of non Muslims Muslim opinion and the myth of 'tacit support' for terrorism - Counterfire - note the 9% of non Muslims versus another poll showing 12% of Muslims

figure1_non-muslims_support_terror.png


This looks very much like a matter of unrepresentative sample, though. I don't think Christians are noticeably worse than Muslims in this regard. They are just somewhat easier to meet and a bit more outspoken in our direct personal experience.

Muslims do indeed want to covert others to Islam and are in fact enjoined to do it just as Christians are supposed to spread the faith. But I was thinking of the many Christian missionaries who travel to as organized groups to spread Christianity. I specifically used "Rice Christian" because too often in the past at least the implicit bargain was that someone would be fed if they adopted Christianity. Actually thinking about this some more, the terrorists are doing worse in the areas they control but the vast majority of Muslims and the vast majority of Christians don't engage in such heinous acts.
Excuse me, what do you mean here? You seem to have forgotten the core points you had to express.

I was responding to your comment about the territorial desires of various religions.

Of course. Everyone wants to live in peace. Alas, far too often that becomes an attempted justification for all sorts of abuses and shames.

The problem as I see it is that some don't want to live in peace but instead want to kill and destroy others. A few decades ago Communists in Cambodia killed millions of their own people. There were some terrible atrocities in Africa that had nothing to do with religion. Now we have a small number relative to the world's population that are doing the same thing in the name of Islam violating what the Quran itself says and thus are apostates in fact.

From what I know of all three doctrines, there are particularly difficult challenges in the attempt of being a non-supremacist Muslim, to a degree that is not all that comparable to those of a Christian or a practicioner of Judaism.

If you have evidence to the contrary, by all means tell me about it.

The biggest evidence is the lives of the 5-12 million Muslim Americans. The overwhelming majority are doing just fine living here including in some cases being elected to public office. And if you look at the history of Spain, Muslims lived at peace after the Christians took over until the Christians ethnically cleansed them. So this is nothing new.

You can find different opinions but this is supported by various web sites that discuss the question with the basic principle that a Muslim must guard against having his or her faith weakened and be allow to practice Islam - the 5 pillars of professing the faith, prayer 5 times a day, fasting during Ramadan, giving alms and making the pilgrimage to Mecca if able. There are of course other aspects that I would ascribe to practicing the faith such as being able to study the Quran, dressing modestly, observing dietary restrictions and avoiding as far as possible getting involved with interest-based banking. But the Muslims here at RF would be in a better position than I as a non-Muslim to say what practicing Islam means to them.

Muslims Living in Non-Muslim Lands
Migration to Non-Muslim Countries | A Code of Practice For Muslims in the West | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org Are Muslims allowed to live in non-Muslim countries? [Archive] - sunniforum.com - a resource for the propagation of authentic Islamic teachings says:

...
“If it be the case that a Muslim is capable of professing and manifesting his/her faith in the land of the non-Muslims, then that has become for him/her his/her Dar al Islam. His residing in that land is more favorable than his leaving from it given that it is desirable that others enter into Islam beside him/her.”
...

I thought the Protocols were widely exposed as malicious frauds?
They are. I used them as an example of the bigotry that exists today toward Jews. If someone opened a topic on Judaism paralleling the one on Islam, such accusations could be brought to the table. My background is Jewish and thus I'm very sensitive to prejudice based on religion (and everything else).

Every religion has scripture that can be interpreted in both positive and negative ways. If someone asserts, for example, that the negative interpretation of Islam is too common today. And that it is especially a problem is the situation in the Middle East where the prior amity of various peoples living together has broken down with barbarous acts that to me is based on fact.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Living in the dead past is the problem, and doing that is ignorance, if your religion keeps you in the past then its your prison.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The Judeo-Xian meddling in the Middle East is for more damaging than Islam IMO.
What in the world does that even mean?
Is it the Jews doing it or the Christians?
Or are the Jews also at fault by virtue of being half of the (misnomer) phrase Judeo-Christian?

Also, half the world Jewish population currently resides in the Middle East. So if your answer to this post can include how any "meddling" might not represent direct interest to Jews, I'd be much obliged.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The biggest evidence is the lives of the 5-12 million Muslim Americans. The overwhelming majority are doing just fine living here including in some cases being elected to public office. And if you look at the history of Spain, Muslims lived at peace after the Christians took over until the Christians ethnically cleansed them. So this is nothing new.
Perhaps this point is related to the OP. Muslims in America might have access to better educational tools than their counterparts in the Middle East.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Not to imply that this means much, but the fact remains that I have to rely on forum members to even remind me that anti-semitism still exists at all, let alone that it is rising.
There's no question that anti-semitism is rising, especially in Europe. It might be related to the rise in Muslim migration to Europe. But acts of anti-semitism are unquestionably on the rise as is escape to Israel from those countries.[/quote]

I thought the Protocols were widely exposed as malicious frauds?
But when you want to believe something, any proof will do.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
It is currently the 15 century of Islam. Have a close look at the activity of so called Christian nations and of Christian thought and actions in their 15th century, at least in Europe and in it's attitudes to non-Christians.
Maybe it's all part of the progress to betterment, assuming that you think the modern world is a better world!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
What in the world does that even mean?
Is it the Jews doing it or the Christians?
Or are the Jews also at fault by virtue of being half of the (misnomer) phrase Judeo-Christian?

Also, half the world Jewish population currently resides in the Middle East. So if your answer to this post can include how any "meddling" might not represent direct interest to Jews, I'd be much obliged.
As I see it, Jews & Xians act in concert, particularly in the Mid East & Americastan.
Jews/Israel exercise enormous influence upon Xians in the latter.
What Americastan does (wrongfully) in the Mid East is entirely because of Judeo Xian rule here.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Living in the dead past is the problem, and doing that is ignorance, if your religion keeps you in the past then its your prison.
Psychoslice, if I may, it could be a good idea to spend some time reading about historical conflicts and the people involved in them.

I just finished a book about WW1 and I am going through another. I suspect a similar exercise could give you a sense of how formidable a task it is to live apart from the fruits of the past.

Both individual people and, most of all, living communities need a sense of identity and purpose. Doing things in ways that are not well-known and well-understood by most people in one's community is simply not at all easy.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
I was adopting a Square perspective. All that matters to the Square is money. Also, we know they are violent, because Square television basically airs violence from the six and up. Coming from that perspective that is utterly amoral, why not ? You'd be sitting on a large supply of oil and you'd make money off your arab slaves.es, it is utterly immoral, but you do lots of things that are immoral. You abort Down Syndrome kids because you don't want "retards" ( My apologies to my developmentally disabled friends, the Squares know you by that) ? It's immoral to keep us from working 25 years after the A.D.A was passed. It's immoral to lock mentally ill people in prisons. You have a lot of immorality which proves to me you need to be watched.
Again, coming from your perspective, why not do it ? It will make you a lot of immoral money.
What is "the square"? And, why do you think that violence in media and children watching it proves that "the squares" are violent? That seems completely absurd, but you sound confident, so I'd love to see your evidence.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Enslave them?
That one raised my eyebrows too Leibowde. I mean, what the you know what? Shall we start up the internment camps again and demand all peoples not like us jump inside?? I swear this country is a cesspool. Hell, the whole world is nowadays.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
I think there's something to this, but there are a ton of educated superstitious Christians in the U.S. so...
That is an understatement. Look at the bull merde on tv's now. Reality shows that make me nauseous. Duggars, or Bates and some flipping hair salon wars? If I watched any of that ****e, I would feel my IQ dropping. And the sad truth is, LOTS of people love that tripe.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Yes. Anyone that isn't disabled is a Square. Apologies if you are disabled and none if you are not.

Well, I am disabled, not only because I am legally blind but with intractable pain from advanced RA. So thanks for nothing really. I continue to contribute, btw. And care for an aged mother with Alzheimers. As well as write papers in my field. Not all disabled people are disabled.
 
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