Are Muslims disobeying the Qur'an by participating in this forum?

[KWED]

Yeah that's bad.
Now what?

Not sure what position you are adopting here? We shouldn't criticise Islam, even if it is clearly deserved?
What?

 

[KWED]

Even more important is the intention behind those claims.
eg. is the intention to encourage peace, or one of enmity

Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrahim and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever, until you believe in Allah Alone," - Quran 60:4

Seems to have cleared that question up. Allah recommends hating disbelievers until they submit to Islam.

 

[KWED]

No assessment of the religion of billions of people ought hinge on a few verses from a book

Indeed. It should be judged on the entirety of scripture. Both the Quran and sunnah contain many passages that promote or condone a whole litany of violent, intolerant, oppressive, harmful behaviour.

which they clearly don't take literally.

I agree that many Muslims are better than the religion they follow.

Islam is a religion of peace for those who interpret it that way. It is a religion of war for those who interpret it that way.

The issue is that it does actually contain all those passages that justify violent intolerance and oppression, so it is irrelevant if there are other passages that are not violently intolerant. A murderer is a murderer, even if they are a charity volunteer when they are not killing people.

Much like Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism.

Same rules apply to all ideologies. Judge them by the content of their scriptures, not by the behaviour of individual followers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Seems to have cleared that question up. Allah recommends hating disbelievers until they submit to Islam.

Yes .. you confirm your intention of promoting hate.
It is you who quote verses of scripture, that are clearly those that apply to war.

..or are you suggesting that ordinary peaceful Muslims should be attacking all non-Muslims according to their religion?

 

[KWED]

In any violent neighborhood, you will find just a few people wrecking it for all. They grafitti, murder, steal. But, the vast majority are good and kind folks. Lets not tar everyone with the same brush and throw the baby out with the bath water or we'll be up a creek without a saddle looking a gift horse in the mouth as he drinks.

The difference is that the vandals and murderers and thieves are disobeying the law.
Groups like ISIS are following the Quran and sunnah. I appreciate that most Muslims may well disagree with what ISIS do, but if those actions are promoted or permitted in the Quran or sunnah that raises the thorny issue of who is the ultimate moral arbiter - god or the individual?

 

[KWED]

It baffles me how many Christians have been reading the Bible their whole lives who woefully misunderstand it.

Who decides which interpretation of a holy text is the correct one?

 

[KWED]

There is another such verse in Quran:
25:64

وَعِبَادُ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الَّذِیۡنَ یَمۡشُوۡنَ عَلَی الۡاَرۡضِ ہَوۡنًا وَّاِذَا خَاطَبَہُمُ الۡجٰہِلُوۡنَ قَالُوۡا سَلٰمًا ﴿۶۴﴾

English - Sher Ali
And the servants of the Gracious God are those who walk on the earth in a dignified manner, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Regards

Who decides who is "ignorant", and on what basis?

BTW, your Quran resource has incorrect verse numbering.

 

[RAYYAN]

Yet there it still lies like the turd that it is - "Fight those who believe not in Allah .....".

There no lies

 

[Kooky]

Your preferred course of action seems to be to attack those who expose the Kafriphobia in the Qur'an.

I asked you an honest question. It's not my problem when you don't seem to have any idea what to do about your obvious outrage over the continued existence of Muslim sacred texts.

My question to you is why don't you have a problem with it?

Because I do not believe that the root cause of bigotry in societies is religion; religion is at best an ex post facto justification for existing bigotry. I believe that when people practice their religion, they typically tend to cherry pick those portions of their sacred texts that tend to justify what they wanted to do anyway.

Also, I have read enough texts from the Classical and Hellenistic era to have become quite jaded over that time period's typical bigotries; the Quran isn't much worse in this regard than most ancient religions or philosophies.

 

[Kooky]

If a political party started today with the principles of Islam as its manifesto, it would be universally condemned and probably banned.

You mean, something like Christian fundamentalism in the US, which instead of being condemned and banned, is actually a strongly influential player in state politics there?

 

[paarsurrey]

Who decides who is "ignorant", and on what basis?

BTW, your Quran resource has incorrect verse numbering.

Aren't Atheism people "ignorant", as Atheism requires no knowledge, please? Right?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Who decides which interpretation of a holy text is the correct one?

Quran decides, please:

5:49
وَاَنۡزَلۡنَاۤ اِلَیۡکَ الۡکِتٰبَ بِالۡحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ مِنَ الۡکِتٰبِ وَمُہَیۡمِنًا عَلَیۡہِ فَاحۡکُمۡ بَیۡنَہُمۡ بِمَاۤ اَنۡزَلَ اللّٰہُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعۡ اَہۡوَآءَہُمۡ عَمَّا جَآءَکَ مِنَ الۡحَقِّ ؕ لِکُلٍّ جَعَلۡنَا مِنۡکُمۡ شِرۡعَۃً وَّمِنۡہَاجًا ؕ وَلَوۡ شَآءَ اللّٰہُ لَجَعَلَکُمۡ اُمَّۃً وَّاحِدَۃً وَّلٰکِنۡ لِّیَبۡلُوَکُمۡ فِیۡ مَاۤ اٰتٰٮکُمۡ فَاسۡتَبِقُوا الۡخَیۡرٰتِ ؕ اِلَی اللّٰہِ مَرۡجِعُکُمۡ جَمِیۡعًا فَیُنَبِّئُکُمۡ بِمَا کُنۡتُمۡ فِیۡہِ تَخۡتَلِفُوۡنَ ﴿ۙ۴۹﴾

English - Sher Ali
And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil inclinations, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you We prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced His will, He would have made you all one people, but He wishes to try you by that which He has given you. Vie, then, with one another in good works. To Allah shall you all return; then will He inform you of that wherein you differed.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Right?

Regards

 

[KWED]

The verse has two words "یُکۡفَرُ بِہَا" English "being denied" and "یُسۡتَہۡزَاُ بِہَا " English "mocked at ". If one does not ridicule, I understand the debate/discussion is to continue, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

Concepts like ridicule and mockery are potentially subjective. One man's mockery is another man's reasonable criticism.

I have read the Qur'an and lived my whole life in Muslim societies. I was also brought up into the religion and practiced it regularly until early adulthood.

I agree with @Left Coast's assessment. Dismissing more progressive and peaceful interpretations of the Qur'an only gives leverage to the notion that only extremist and literalist readings of scripture are valid. This is counterproductive and doesn't aid in promoting the more peaceful voices.

Such dismissal may be a convenient means of painting the entire religion in a negative light by treating it as a monolith, but overlooking diversity and nuance doesn't help advance coexistence or do justice to the Muslims who also believe in advancing it.

The literalist interpretation will always carry weight when liberal modernists still insist that the Quran is the infallible and immutable revealed word of god. There needs to be a paradigm shift in how Islam (as a body of people) approaches the Quran.

 

[KWED]

It's the kind of thinking that assumes a cursory familiar with a sacred text confers objective and accurate understanding of all instances of the living religion based on that sacred text.

And yet, discussion with apologists often show that they have less knowledge and understanding of holy texts than sceptics (for example, millions of Muslims have never read the Quran).
The idea that because someone is a Muslim/Christian/Hindu/whatever, they necessarily have a more rounded, objective, considered understanding of their own scripture than a sceptic is obvious nonsense.

 

[KWED]

Now let's look at another angle: what about the atheists who don't mock or insult your religion but who you still say, according to your specific interpretation of the religion, should be killed for leaving it?

Mocking may often be unproductive, but saying someone should be killed for changing their religion is orders of magnitude more dangerous and dehumanizing. At least most atheists who mock your beliefs don't deny that you have the right to live.

I'm not putting forward these points in order to argue with you; I'm only hoping to get you to reconsider how you view an entire group's (i.e., ex-Muslims') right to life and also to get you to see that most of us aren't some demons who are out to harm others and deserve to be killed.

^ This
Apparently, pointing out the flaws in ancient superstition is unacceptable bashing, mocking, bullying, etc.
And yet, blithely stating that people should be killed for their beliefs is perfectly acceptable.
The lack of self awareness is breathtaking.

 

[KWED]

You'd think so, but I've met more atheists who insisted on a literal reading of the Bible or the Quran than I've met Christians or Muslims who thought the same.

If you have read the Quran and sunnah and associated classical tafsir, you would know that a literalist interpretation is required.
Now, I understand that many Muslims eschew such an interpretation because of the obvious implications, but it is difficult to reconcile this with the claim that the Quran is god's final, infallible, immutable guide for all people and all times, and Muhammad was the ultimate role model and moral exemplar for all Muslims to aspire to.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The idea that because someone is a Muslim/Christian/Hindu/whatever, they necessarily have a more rounded, objective, considered understanding of their own scripture than a sceptic is obvious nonsense.

No .. it's not.
As I've already said, their intentions are different.
They will therefore interpret things according to their own agenda .. which is one of disbelief and attempt to show contradictions.

 

[stevecanuck]

Because I do not believe that the root cause of bigotry in societies is religion

Let's see if I have this right. The Qur'an calls unbelievers names like donkeys, dogs with their tongues lolling, lost cattle, the worst of Allah's beasts, unjust, liars, and evil-doers literally hundreds of times, but that's not a root cause of bigotry.

I'm willing to bet that when you started this knee-jerk defense of Islam you actually had no idea that the Qur'an contained such hatred and disdain. And now you're just digging your heels in rather than admit to Islam's innate hatred of 'al kafareen'.

 

[stevecanuck]

Aren't Atheism people "ignorant", as Atheism requires no knowledge, please? Right?

Regards

You have that exactly backwards. Faith requires no knowledge. All that it requires is ......... wait for it ............ faith.

 

[stevecanuck]

Quran decides, please:

5:49
وَاَنۡزَلۡنَاۤ اِلَیۡکَ الۡکِتٰبَ بِالۡحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَیۡنَ یَدَیۡہِ مِنَ الۡکِتٰبِ وَمُہَیۡمِنًا عَلَیۡہِ فَاحۡکُمۡ بَیۡنَہُمۡ بِمَاۤ اَنۡزَلَ اللّٰہُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعۡ اَہۡوَآءَہُمۡ عَمَّا جَآءَکَ مِنَ الۡحَقِّ ؕ لِکُلٍّ جَعَلۡنَا مِنۡکُمۡ شِرۡعَۃً وَّمِنۡہَاجًا ؕ وَلَوۡ شَآءَ اللّٰہُ لَجَعَلَکُمۡ اُمَّۃً وَّاحِدَۃً وَّلٰکِنۡ لِّیَبۡلُوَکُمۡ فِیۡ مَاۤ اٰتٰٮکُمۡ فَاسۡتَبِقُوا الۡخَیۡرٰتِ ؕ اِلَی اللّٰہِ مَرۡجِعُکُمۡ جَمِیۡعًا فَیُنَبِّئُکُمۡ بِمَا کُنۡتُمۡ فِیۡہِ تَخۡتَلِفُوۡنَ ﴿ۙ۴۹﴾

English - Sher Ali
And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil inclinations, turning away from the truth which has come to thee. For each of you We prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced His will, He would have made you all one people, but He wishes to try you by that which He has given you. Vie, then, with one another in good works. To Allah shall you all return; then will He inform you of that wherein you differed.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Right?

Regards

Some verses say that Allah is testing us to confirm what is in our hearts, while other verses claim that Allah already knows what is in our hearts.

Which is it?