Are Muslims disobeying the Qur'an by participating in this forum?

[paarsurrey]

Now let's look at another angle: what about the atheists who don't mock or insult your religion but who you still say, according to your specific interpretation of the religion, should be killed for leaving it?

Mocking may often be unproductive, but saying someone should be killed for changing their religion is orders of magnitude more dangerous and dehumanizing. At least most atheists who mock your beliefs don't deny that you have the right to live.

I'm not putting forward these points in order to argue with you; I'm only hoping to get you to reconsider how you view an entire group's (i.e., ex-Muslims') right to life and also to get you to see that most of us aren't some demons who are out to harm others and deserve to be killed.

Sorry, I don't agree with one here.

Regards

 

[Debater Slayer]

I totally understand what you are saying. I was born and raised a christian and fully 100% American.

But changing my belief isn't going to happen Anyone can leave Islam if they wish-majority never do. My advice is, know Islam before you enter into it, do not advertise if you leave it. The rest is between you and your Lord.

And Allah knows best

Not everyone can leave Islam if they wish, especially not in societies that persecute those who do.

Also, many who leave Islam were brought up into it rather than converting as adults. This adds another layer of complication to the idea that they can just "know Islam" before being considered to be among its followers.

As for advertising one's belief or lack thereof, it's clear from your posts on this forum that you have a desire to advertise your own beliefs based on a religion you converted to. I think it's extremely inconsistent to then say that ex-Muslims shouldn't have the same right or that they should be punished for doing the same.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Sorry, I don't agree with one here.

Regards

I think you may have misread my post: I was citing another member's belief, not stating it as my own.

 

[MyM]

From what I've seen, your situation is quite different: I've never seen you argue for violence or death against those who have left your religion, nor against LGBT rights.

If someone's beliefs include support for such things and then they say they don't want to debate non-believers, I think that more often than not raises a massive red flag and indicates they simply want to shelter their beliefs from scrutiny or reconsideration in spite of any ethical or logical objections to said beliefs.

That is not what was going on. I didn't say all non believers. I say athiests who disrespect. There is a difference.

A person's belief does not have to coincide with what others believe to be according to their person. If they give their replies in a diligent manner, in a good responsive way, if the other does not approve they should not be disrespected for it.

 

[paarsurrey]

Doing what? My impression is that they want to avoid skeptics. For obvious reasons.

I would too, if I had those beliefs, and want to keep them safe.

Ciao

- viole

I have been writing in these forums for quite sometimes, did I resort to such avoidance, please? Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I think you may have misread my post: I was citing another member's belief, not stating it as my own.

Ok friend.

Regards

 

[Debater Slayer]

That is not what was going on. I didn't say all non believers. I say athiests who disrespect. There is a difference.

A person's belief does not have to coincide with what others believe to be according to their person. If they give their replies in a diligent manner, in a good responsive way, if the other does not approve they should not be disrespected for it.

What constitutes "disrespect"? I'm not in favor of most forms of expression that I believe would be disrespectful (e.g., drawing unflattering cartoons of Muhammad to intentionally offend Muslims), but there are many subjective areas of discourse where you'll find people trying to take away anyone else's right to say something they deem disrespectful even if it's valid, reasoned criticism.

I would say stating a belief that a certain group should be killed for changing their religion is quite disrespectful and dehumanizing, but you don't see me arguing that people who do so should be punished or put to death themselves.

 

[viole]

I have been writing in these forums for quite sometimes, did I resort to such avoidance, please? Right, please?

Regards

Fellow believers of yours addressing the OP seem to do that.

ciao

- viole

 

[MyM]

What constitutes "disrespect"? I'm not in favor of most forms of expression that I believe would be disrespectful (e.g., drawing unflattering cartoons of Muhammad to intentionally offend Muslims), but there are many subjective areas of discourse where you'll find people trying to take away anyone else's right to say something they deem disrespectful even if it's valid, reasoned criticism.

I would say stating a belief that a certain group should be killed for changing their religion is quite disrespectful and dehumanizing, but you don't see me arguing that people who do so should be punished or put to death themselves.

I take it you do not like the religion of Islam?

I said I am not political from the start. I gave the Quranic and Sunnah evidences. I repeated over and over again that I am not one to go against the religion I believe as truth. People asked me, I gave them the answers straight up. If you find that disrespectful I could say the same to the Christians and the Jews where I get offended saying God is trinity, or that Jews hate Muslims or where people offend Islam with mockery of illustrations etc. etc. etc.

But I say, when athiests disrespect by calling me out and labeling me names and say my scholars are idiots and criticize my Creator as ridiculous THESE things are never to be brought up and they just keep on, that is when I get called out as a de-human person.

fairness right?

 

[Debater Slayer]

I take it you do not like the religion of Islam?

I said I am not political from the start. I gave the Quranic and Sunnah evidences. I repeated over and over again that I am not one to go against the religion I believe as truth. People asked me, I gave them the answers straight up. If you find that disrespectful I could say the same to the Christians and the Jews where I get offended saying God is trinity, or that Jews hate Muslims or where people offend Islam with mockery of illustrations etc. etc. etc.

But I say, when athiests disrespect by calling me out and labeling me names and say my scholars are idiots and criticize my Creator as ridiculous THESE things are never to be brought up and they just keep on, that is when I get called out as a de-human person.

fairness right?

My replies throughout this thread keep distinguishing between Islam as a whole and subsets/interpretations thereof. So no, I don't dislike the religion of Islam: that depends on which sect, interpretation, and doctrine we're talking about. Your question seems a bit loaded and overly generalized given the diverse nature of Islamic sects and interpretations.

Do I dislike and strongly oppose extremism whether it is done in the name of Islam, Christianity, atheism, or any other religion/worldview? Absolutely, and I think executing people for changing their religion or worldview falls squarely within the category of violent extremism.

I agree the name-calling and insults you mentioned are often unproductive and don't do much to advance understanding. However, I think it's also important to stress that none of the things you mentioned remotely warrant taking someone's life, much less when you also disrespect them by openly arguing that they have no right to life merely because they left your religion.

 

[MyM]

My replies throughout this thread keep distinguishing between Islam as a whole and subsets/interpretations thereof. So no, I don't dislike the religion of Islam wholesale: that depends on which sect, interpretation, and doctrine we're talking about.

Do I dislike and strongly oppose extremism whether it is done in the name of Islam, Christianity, atheism, or any other religion/worldview? Absolutely, and I think executing people for changing their religion or worldview falls squarely within the category of violent extremism.

I agree the name-calling and insults you mentioned are often unproductive and don't do much to advance understanding. However, I think it's also important to stress that none of the things you mentioned remotely warrant taking someone's life, much less when you also disrespect them by openly arguing that they have no right to life merely because they left your religion.

It is also in Judaism. In the Bible.

The first recorded reference to apostasy from Judaism is in Deuteronomy 13:6–11, which states:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again."


It isn't on me to make the rules. There must be reasons for this unknown to our thinking. I gave reasons why and what to do if things don't go the way you want them to go.

 

[stevecanuck]

There is another such verse in Quran:
25:64

وَعِبَادُ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الَّذِیۡنَ یَمۡشُوۡنَ عَلَی الۡاَرۡضِ ہَوۡنًا وَّاِذَا خَاطَبَہُمُ الۡجٰہِلُوۡنَ قَالُوۡا سَلٰمًا ﴿۶۴﴾

English - Sher Ali
And the servants of the Gracious God are those who walk on the earth in a dignified manner, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Regards

This surah was revealed during the Meccan period when Mohamed had no power and certainly no army. Later when he went to Yathrib he turned Islam into a warrior religion. The above sentiment was replaced by verses like 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah .....".

 

[stevecanuck]

The verse has two words "یُکۡفَرُ بِہَا" English "being denied" and "یُسۡتَہۡزَاُ بِہَا " English "mocked at ". If one does not ridicule, I understand the debate/discussion is to continue, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

I both deny Allah's existence and debate the overall message. Perhaps Muslims should ignore my arguments regarding denial, but engage me when I discuss the message.

Btw, why don't you identify yourself as an Ahmadiyya?

 

[stevecanuck]

8:56
اِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَآبِّ عِنۡدَ اللّٰہِ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا فَہُمۡ لَا یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ ﴿ۖۚ۵۶﴾
English - Sher Ali
Surely, the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who are ungrateful. So they will not believe,
8:57
اَلَّذِیۡنَ عٰہَدۡتَّ مِنۡہُمۡ ثُمَّ یَنۡقُضُوۡنَ عَہۡدَہُمۡ فِیۡ کُلِّ مَرَّۃٍ وَّہُمۡ لَا یَتَّقُوۡنَ ﴿۵۷﴾
English - Sher Ali
Those with whom thou didst make a covenant; then they break their covenant every time, and they do not fear God.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

As one could see the verse 8:55 is not general for the simple denier and or the unbeliever. The next verse clears it up. It is specific to the Meccans who fought with the prophet. Right, please?

Regards

You have highlighted a persistent theme in the Qur'an. Frequently a specific incident is mentioned, but then it is summarized as a general statement. That's one of them. Here's another example (I have many):

Verse 2:190 is the first (both chronologically and regarding compilation order) to command Muslims to fight. 190 says to fight in self defense, and 191 includes 'fitnah' as a reason to fight. It ends by saying, "But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers".

This is directly speaking of the pagans of Mecca, but the ending is definitely meant as a general statement with on-going implications.

 

[stevecanuck]

"It doesn't. There are 6,236 verses. I've been reading the Qur'an for 20 years "

I am glad to know that one has read Quran for 20 years. Isn't there a chance that one could understand some and or many verses incorrectly, please?
Right, please?'

Regards

Absolutely (but mostly not). Take 2:256 (There is no compulsion in religion) for example. People incorrectly take that to mean that Muslims are told not to force Islam (either conversion or rule) on people. If you read the surrounding verses you'll see it's just Allah, yet again, claiming that "his signs" are so obviously true that people will come to Islam voluntarily.

 

[RAYYAN]

Not everyone can leave Islam if they wish, especially not in societies that persecute those who do.

Also, many who leave Islam were brought up into it rather than converting as adults. This adds another layer of complication to the idea that they can just "know Islam" before being considered to be among its followers.

As for advertising one's belief or lack thereof, it's clear from your posts on this forum that you have a desire to advertise your own beliefs based on a religion you converted to. I think it's extremely inconsistent to then say that ex-Muslims shouldn't have the same right or that they should be punished for doing the same.

To be honest, here, I agree with you that some societies punish people who leave Islam, and that is a sad reality
But, in Islam, there is no such thing in Islam. Everyone is free to enter or leave Islam with no punishment of any form unless they are spreading harm to the society and Islam after leaving it

 

[paarsurrey]

This surah was revealed during the Meccan period when Mohamed had no power and certainly no army. Later when he went to Yathrib he turned Islam into a warrior religion. The above sentiment was replaced by verses like 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah .....".

There are no replacements of Surahs/Chapters and verses of the Quran. It is one's wrong perception, I understand.
Please try to understand Quran from the context verses, that is some verses preceding and some verses following. The whole Quran is in reasonable system/s, one part of it is supported and explained by the rest of it . Right?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I both deny Allah's existence and debate the overall message. Perhaps Muslims should ignore my arguments regarding denial, but engage me when I discuss the message.

Btw, why don't you identify yourself as an Ahmadiyya?

It is one's own choice to believe or disbelieve existence of G-d. Right?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

You have highlighted a persistent theme in the Qur'an. Frequently a specific incident is mentioned, but then it is summarized as a general statement. That's one of them. Here's another example (I have many):

Verse 2:190 is the first (both chronologically and regarding compilation order) to command Muslims to fight. 190 says to fight in self defense, and 191 includes 'fitnah' as a reason to fight. It ends by saying, "But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers".

This is directly speaking of the pagans of Mecca, but the ending is definitely meant as a general statement with on-going implications.

That may be one's own wrong perception.
Regards

 

[RAYYAN]

This surah was revealed during the Meccan period when Mohamed had no power and certainly no army. Later when he went to Yathrib he turned Islam into a warrior religion. The above sentiment was replaced by verses like 9:29 - "Fight those who believe not in Allah .....".

Ah, NO
I am sure you got this on Google without reading about it in depth
9:29 and the whole chapter is talking about the conflict between Muslims and The Byzantine power. The Prophet PBUH sent a message to Caesar, Caesar killed the messenger, then he prepared an army to go killed the Muslims. But, Muslims beat him to it by sending an army.
So that verse talks about that battle

That being the rule of that time, when you take over land the losers have 3 options
- Become Muslims and pay tax like any other Muslim
- Don't be a Muslim but pay taxes for services and protection
- Fight and win or die

What is expected by armies fighting, of course slaughter them