Are Muslims disobeying the Qur'an by participating in this forum?

[stevecanuck]

Having differing opinions is fine. We should all respect one another. However, acting on such differing opinions (such as your example....prosecuting Pakistani Christians) is a bit more than having an opinion.

Right. It's having a religion. And the religion that promotes such things is Islam.

The same is true of the Religious Right mixing politics and religion. The prevent Gay marriages (preventing child custody and inheritance), they teach their religion with their bibles in schools (when they can get away with it, though there is supposed to be separation of church and state to allow everyone free practice of religion). They have acted on their opinions, and their decisions affect us all.

Even if they could do all that, they still wouldn't rise (sink?) to the level of Islam.

If you were forced to live in a theocracy, and you had to chose between Christian and Islamic, which would you choose?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't either. It's fruitless.

Well good for you. And now you just gotta get your evidence in order so that you don't have to also deal with people who actually care about the state of evidence. It's either that, or just claim that dealing with people who succinctly demonstrate that your evidence doesn't display what you'd like to claim it does is "fruitless" I suppose. 'Cause that sounds totally legit/sage/wise/courageous.

 

[The Hammer]

Well good for you. And now you just gotta get your evidence in order so that you don't have to also deal with people who actually care about the state of evidence. It's either that, or just claim that dealing with people who succinctly demonstrate that your evidence doesn't display what you'd like to claim it does is "fruitless" I suppose. 'Cause that sounds totally legit/sage/wise/courageous.

Mmk. You place a lot of emphasis on something that seems important to you (the collection of evidence), that's good for you.

I don't spend much time attempting to explain or provide evidence for my claims, unless it's scientific in nature. Also, My views of what is wise/sage-like doesn't involve your acceptance or opinion on what is wise or sage like.

 

[The Hammer]

It doesn't. There are 6,236 verses. I've been reading the Qur'an for 20 years, so I like to think I know which verses best sum up it's overall message.

That's a lot of time and energy on something you have no faith in. Is it scientific in nature? I like religious studies.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Verse 4:140 of the Qur'an states:

Yusuf Ali: Already has He sent you Word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the hypocrites and those who defy faith - all in Hell.

It seems quite clear to me that when a Muslim engages in debate with the likes of me, that he/she is openly defying Allah's command to not do so.

A cynic might even suggest that Allah is afraid of his followers being defeated in a debate and swayed away from the 'truth'.

Comments?

I doubt God is afraid of you tbh.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't either. It's fruitless.

There is another such verse in Quran:
25:64

وَعِبَادُ الرَّحۡمٰنِ الَّذِیۡنَ یَمۡشُوۡنَ عَلَی الۡاَرۡضِ ہَوۡنًا وَّاِذَا خَاطَبَہُمُ الۡجٰہِلُوۡنَ قَالُوۡا سَلٰمًا ﴿۶۴﴾

English - Sher Ali
And the servants of the Gracious God are those who walk on the earth in a dignified manner, and when the ignorant address them, they say, ‘Peace!’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If a Muslims deems I'm only ridiculing and mocking rather than debating, then are they not obligated to stop talking to me? If they are, then I can name you a few of this forum who are in trouble come judgement day.

Btw, some translations specify "denied" rather than "ridiculed".

The verse has two words "یُکۡفَرُ بِہَا" English "being denied" and "یُسۡتَہۡزَاُ بِہَا " English "mocked at ". If one does not ridicule, I understand the debate/discussion is to continue, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Further to this, I just checked the Arabic, and "being denied" is definitely the translation as it uses a conjugation of KFR in the 3rd person masculine singular imperfect verb tense.

Please read my post #47 . Right?
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

And Islam doesn't like you. We are both considered "the lowest of God's beasts (5:88)".

That seems to be incorrect, please provide correct reference:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/5/88/default.htm
وَكُلُوا۟ مِمَّا رَزَقَكُمُ ٱللَّهُ حَلَلًۭا طَيِّبًۭا ۚ وَٱتَّقُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَنتُم بِهِۦ مُؤْمِنُونَ ‎
Transliteration (2021)
wakulū mimmā razaqakumu l-lahu ḥalālan ṭayyiban wa-ittaqū l-laha alladhī antum bihi mu'minūn
Word for Word
Dr. Shehnaz Shaikh, Ms. Kauser Katri, and more
And eat of what has provided you Allah - lawful good. And fear Allah, the One you (are) in Him believers.

 

[paarsurrey]

I transposed the numbers, It's 8:55.

Sahih International: Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe -

Pickthall: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.

Yusuf Ali: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

Shakir: Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

Muhammad Sarwar: The most wicked creatures in the sight of God are the unbelievers who never have faith,

Mohsin Khan: Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.

Arberry: Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are the unbelievers, who will not believe

8:56
اِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَآبِّ عِنۡدَ اللّٰہِ الَّذِیۡنَ کَفَرُوۡا فَہُمۡ لَا یُؤۡمِنُوۡنَ ﴿ۖۚ۵۶﴾
English - Sher Ali
Surely, the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who are ungrateful. So they will not believe,
8:57
اَلَّذِیۡنَ عٰہَدۡتَّ مِنۡہُمۡ ثُمَّ یَنۡقُضُوۡنَ عَہۡدَہُمۡ فِیۡ کُلِّ مَرَّۃٍ وَّہُمۡ لَا یَتَّقُوۡنَ ﴿۵۷﴾
English - Sher Ali
Those with whom thou didst make a covenant; then they break their covenant every time, and they do not fear God.
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

As one could see the verse 8:55 is not general for the simple denier and or the unbeliever. The next verse clears it up. It is specific to the Meccans who fought with the prophet. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

It doesn't. There are 6,236 verses. I've been reading the Qur'an for 20 years, so I like to think I know which verses best sum up it's overall message.

That claim is wholly gratuitous and uninformed. You simply have no clue of which you speak.

Again. No. Clue. I assume you've spent exactly zero time reading the qur'an.

"It doesn't. There are 6,236 verses. I've been reading the Qur'an for 20 years "

I am glad to know that one has read Quran for 20 years. Isn't there a chance that one could understand some and or many verses incorrectly, please?
Right, please?

Regards

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Mmk. You place a lot of emphasis on something that seems important to you (the collection of evidence), that's good for you.

I don't spend much time attempting to explain or provide evidence for my claims, unless it's scientific in nature. Also, My views of what is wise/sage-like doesn't involve your acceptance or opinion on what is wise or sage like.

But you got the gist of my opinion though, I see. That is really all I cared about in the first place. I am sure you can understand.

 

[paarsurrey]

That's a lot of time and energy on something you have no faith in. Is it scientific in nature? I like religious studies.

I understand that RF is for comparing notes and finding the truth and reforming the opinions. I will welcome if he (our friend @stevecanuck) opts to discuss things here.

Regards

 

[viole]

Is why I refuse to discuss with athiests anymore

And He has already revealed to you in the Book that, when you hear the Signs of Allah being denied and mocked at, sit not with them until they engage in a talk other than that; for in that case you would be like them.

Why is it not the other way round? Why are you guys so defensive?

Why not instead say: sit with them! Show them the superiority of your belief, and how compelling Allah is, and ridicule them instead! For we have God the Almighty on our side, and the arguments in His favour cannot be denied!

The solution to that riddle is left as a simple exercise to the reader.

It is a bit like the prophecy in the Bible that believers will be scoffed at for their beliefs, isn't it? A sort of self fulfilling prophecy, I would say. And the first think that the author of something totally made up would write. I would, if I had to promote a belief that suffers in no time when analysed rationally.

Ciao

- viole

 

[MyM]

Why is it not the other way round? Why not instead say: sit with them! Show them the superiority of your belief, and how compelling Allah is, and ridicule them instead! For we have God the Almighty on our side!

The solution to that riddle is left as a simple exercise to the reader.

Ciao

- viole

It's useless.

 

[viole]

It's useless.

Of course it is. All beliefs that do not sustain basic logic are.
Refreshing you admit that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

A cynic might even suggest that Allah is afraid of his followers being defeated in a debate and swayed away from the 'truth'.

I do not agree. A guy thinking that would not be a cynic.

Ciao

- viole

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It's useless.

And yet, the atheist obviously does not feel it "useless" to come and sit with you to discuss some of these things, analyze and scrutinize them, provide counter and questions that lay bare issues that they have detected. Isn't that interesting? And yes, yes - I can understand how much you might like to assess all of that as "mocking" or "attacking" or "persecution." The fact still remains that you feel it "useless" because you have a hard time convincing the atheist. But why does the atheist not find it "useless" when they likely have just as hard a time convincing you to take a second look at the things you are believing? I believe there are very fundamental, and obvious reasons for this.

 

[MyM]

Of course it is. All beliefs that do not sustain basic logic are.
Refreshing you admit that.

Ciao

- viole

you're entitled to your opinion, but do not put words in my mouth thanks.

 

[MyM]

And yet, the atheist obviously does not feel it "useless" to come and sit with you to discuss some of these things, analyze and scrutinize them, provide counter and questions that lay bare issues that they have detected. Isn't that interesting? And yes, yes - I can understand how much you might like to assess all of that as "mocking" or "attacking" or "persecution." The fact still remains that you feel it "useless" because you have a hard time convincing the atheist. But why does the atheist not find it "useless" when they likely have just as hard a time convincing you to take a second look at the things you are believing? I believe there are very fundamental, and obvious reasons for this.

You are entitled to believe as you wish, I have explained my stance before. thanks