Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
that doesn't sound simple to me
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Are Muslims right about Paul?
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
Paul distorted the original teachings in order to still keep the old religion in tact. As for the laws; "love thy neighbour, and honour and love thy creator"' was according to scripture, by word of Jesus the replacement for the laws. As it is stated all other laws is subject to the new two. What Jesus effectively gave is a simple straight forward method on how to live in peace with everybody else. Religion as sold by Paul was and still is an effort by the Jewish religious leaders to keep their power and to keep their dignity in place.
humble servant
Almighty's humble servant
It is not even CLOSE to reality of ALL Christian doctrine.
The doctrine you refer to is ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.
This is not at all what Paul preached. While it is my belief that Christ's teachings were almost always about the Kingdom until the Kingdom, His mission from God was to teach the Kingdom was coming, and that we ALL might gain entrance thru forgiveness of sin and faith in the Messiah to deliver us from that sin.
Many Christians believe Jesus was God, and the premise of the trinity suggests that ALL Christians believe this, but it is simply untrue. In fact, most Christians know there is no way the human mind can comprehend the complexity of God, or His relationship to Christ since we can not fathom a DIRECT LINE of communication with God ALmighty.
Now, the message of Paul was that ALL might be saved by God's Grace, thru faith in Christ Jesus and His Sacrifice, ordered by God ALmighty. In fact.....it is such a sinful world, that had God NOT CHOSEN to give the ultimate Sacrifice, that human beings would have long since went extinct, having exhausted the blood of every living being on the planet in order to atone for sin as ordered in the Law of Moses.
Jesus came and died so that we might live. But He ALSO died so that we werent reduced to sacrificing cockroaches as atonement, which we would surely be reduced to had God not intervened.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Are you willing to debate me on this?
If you were to believe what is written about Jesus when God Created him you would have to believe that concepts devised by men about Jesus are wrong. From him being a savoir or a god. They have set him up as BAAL.
Deadtroopers
Member
Did Paul corrupt the message of Jesus?
Christ spoke to Paul in visions if you are a Christian. If you are anyone else he was either lying or mistaking auditory hallucinations for communications from a deity. Cephas, James, John and Peter, aka the ' so called pillars', aka 'The Jerusalem Church' were also recieving visions or hallucinating depending on your view. This, and seeing prophecy in the Tanakh and inter-Testamental writings if your a Christian, making things up if your not, was how all the apostles were getting Christ's message according to Paul. The teaching was coming from the risen Christ, not an earthly Jesus, Paul and the Pillars were getting, unsurprisingly, somewhat different messages targetting different audiences. This is somewhat analogous to the differences netween the Meccan and Medinan surahs in the Koran. It is all Gabriel dictating the word of Allah; but the contexts differ so they give the appearance of conflicting. When we leave the authentic Paul he is in some trepidation whether his variation of Christ's teaching will be accepted by the Jerusalem leadership or not. The Gospels and Acts are at least one and two generations later and on the wrong side of a brutal war that killed, enslaved or dispersed all who could have directly known these people. It can just as legitimately argued that the Gospels and Acts are at three and four generations removed from the original apostles. It is pretty clear from Paul that all the apostles he knew, including himself were preaching a deity and its teachings; not a man and his teachings. Whether or not there was an actual Jesus playing any part in this; the apostles weren't intertested in what he might have had to say on earth. The apostles were entirely focused on this heavenly being. Jesus Christ was a god from the gitgo. It is the Muslims who are corrupting what Paul, Peter, John, James and Cephas thought Jesus Christ was teaching them and having them teach the world; not Paul corruupting anything. How could he? He was getting it all staight from his Lord the same as everyone else.
Christ spoke to Paul in visions if you are a Christian. If you are anyone else he was either lying or mistaking auditory hallucinations for communications from a deity. Cephas, James, John and Peter, aka the ' so called pillars', aka 'The Jerusalem Church' were also recieving visions or hallucinating depending on your view. This, and seeing prophecy in the Tanakh and inter-Testamental writings if your a Christian, making things up if your not, was how all the apostles were getting Christ's message according to Paul. The teaching was coming from the risen Christ, not an earthly Jesus, Paul and the Pillars were getting, unsurprisingly, somewhat different messages targetting different audiences. This is somewhat analogous to the differences netween the Meccan and Medinan surahs in the Koran. It is all Gabriel dictating the word of Allah; but the contexts differ so they give the appearance of conflicting. When we leave the authentic Paul he is in some trepidation whether his variation of Christ's teaching will be accepted by the Jerusalem leadership or not. The Gospels and Acts are at least one and two generations later and on the wrong side of a brutal war that killed, enslaved or dispersed all who could have directly known these people. It can just as legitimately argued that the Gospels and Acts are at three and four generations removed from the original apostles. It is pretty clear from Paul that all the apostles he knew, including himself were preaching a deity and its teachings; not a man and his teachings. Whether or not there was an actual Jesus playing any part in this; the apostles weren't intertested in what he might have had to say on earth. The apostles were entirely focused on this heavenly being. Jesus Christ was a god from the gitgo. It is the Muslims who are corrupting what Paul, Peter, John, James and Cephas thought Jesus Christ was teaching them and having them teach the world; not Paul corruupting anything. How could he? He was getting it all staight from his Lord the same as everyone else.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
seeking4truth
Active Member
"Christ spoke to Paul in visions if you are a Christian. If you are anyone else he was either lying or mistaking auditory hallucinations for communications from a deity."
Paul met and spoke to Jesus when Jesus was keeping out of the way of the Jewish authorities after the crucifixion.
A short time later there was a functioning community of believers sending out missionaries to the emerging communities around Samaria.
Paul was recalled to the headquarters on at least one occasion to pull him back into line for accepting non-Jews into the community without undergoing conversion to Judaism.
Paul met and spoke to Jesus when Jesus was keeping out of the way of the Jewish authorities after the crucifixion.
A short time later there was a functioning community of believers sending out missionaries to the emerging communities around Samaria.
Paul was recalled to the headquarters on at least one occasion to pull him back into line for accepting non-Jews into the community without undergoing conversion to Judaism.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You're ignoring that the material from which are derived the quotes from Jesus in the synoptics are likely sourced about 7 years after the Jesus Event, and are likely Galilean in origin. The source would have known an earthly Jesus, and quoted an earthly Jesus.
You're also ignoring the fact that Paul probably began preaching less than 18 months following the Jesus Event, and that the apostles you mention that he knew would also have known an earthly Jesus.
While I agree that Jesus was highly mythicized following his death, there very likely was a factual Jesus that began a movement within Judaism.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
What? Are you suggesting that Paul met Jesus before he ascended? If so, can you provide any verse which confirms this claim?
Lilly44
New Member
Paul was inline with the messages of Jesus Christ as well as all of the other prophets. One key example comes from the Old Testament itself as to WHY we are not to follow the old Hebraic laws any longer.
"The waters of Meribah at Rephidim offer another example of type in the Old Testament that points toward Jesus Christ. In Exodus 17, the Israelites were without water in the wilderness, and they criticized Moses with enough anger that he thought they might stone him. When he called on God for help in the matter, God told Moses to strike the rock with his staff. He did so, and the rock split and poured out enough water for all of them.
The same scenario took place a second time at Kadesh in Numbers 20. Again, the Israelites were without water and again Moses fell on his face before the LORD. This time, however, God told Moses to simply speak to the rock so it would produce water. Moses was still furious with the Israelites for their rebellious hearts, and rather than obeying God , he struck the rock again, twice. The water streamed out and the Israelites and their animals drank, but God didn’t let it go. He told Moses to speak to the rock, and His reasons had such significant import that God made an example of Moses over it. After 40 years of Moses’ putting up with the Israelites and their faithless complaining, God denied Moses entrance into the Promised Land. He let Moses gaze on it from a mountaintop, but Moses the Lawgiver did not get to enter the land of rest. Moses did not do exactly as God had asked. The Rock was Christ (1 Corinthians 10: 4). Moses implied to the people that God was angry when He actually wasn’t, and Moses failed to represent God faithfully. He represented the Law. He did not represent God’s grace. What’s interesting is if he had done what God told him to do, those two events would foreshadow the first and second comings of Christ. Only the first occasion involved the rock being smitten. Without realizing it, Moses broke the model and was therefore denied entry into the Promised Land."
Missler, Chuck; Stolebarger, Dan (2014-08-28). The Feasts of Israel (Kindle Locations 136-142). Koinonia House. Kindle Edition.
So this is just one example of why Christ trumps the old Hebraic laws and customs. Christ is the rock upon which we rest our faith and belief in. Paul was completely in line with Christ.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
seeking4truth
Active Member
"What? Are you suggesting that Paul met Jesus before he ascended? If so, can you provide any verse which confirms this claim?"
No I can't. The few verses that exist are describing a vision, a convenient devise to use by writers who wish to give Paul authority he did not have among the early followers of Jesus and to remove the requirements of adhering to the Jewish faith which Jesus had.
Logic and close examination of the events make me think that Jesus met Paul and convinced him of the truth of his claim to be the Messiah. Not least of which was proof that he had survived the attempts by the Temple authorities to kill him.
No I can't. The few verses that exist are describing a vision, a convenient devise to use by writers who wish to give Paul authority he did not have among the early followers of Jesus and to remove the requirements of adhering to the Jewish faith which Jesus had.
Logic and close examination of the events make me think that Jesus met Paul and convinced him of the truth of his claim to be the Messiah. Not least of which was proof that he had survived the attempts by the Temple authorities to kill him.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Umm…the Ebionites were there in the first century. For more on Paul's movement, check this out:
Marcionism
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Isn't it a bit fishy that 80% of the NT letters were written by a man who was not one of Jesus' twelve apostles? Not only that, Paul never even quotes Jesus' words in any of his letters! Yet most hold the writings of Paul in an elevated fashion. Many Christian scholars actually think that Jesus' words and parables were spoken under the "old covenant" and no longer applicable. They believe that only the words of Paul are what is meant for the "church age". ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME??
nazz
Doubting Thomas
"Ebionite" was an early designation of ALL Christians. What Iraeneus was referring to was a later specific group.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
This is not true at all.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Why? Because it does not fit in with your beliefs? BTW, the link you provided says the same thing.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
It depends on how you define Christian. If you define it by James and the twelve apostles than I agree with you. If you define it by Paul's movement in Antioch then I disagree. The Ebionites were staunchly against Paul.