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Are Objective Standards for Morals Superior in Practice to Subjective Standards for Morals?

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
So does the parent eat one of the dozen coconuts on the island, or does s/he allow the child to have them all?
You divide the available resources in such a manner that you both have a chance of survival until such time that there are no more resources and the only way for your child to survive is for you to give up your life.
You're claiming that you are providing us with the standard for "objectively moral" acts,
Evolution and natural selection provided us with the standard.
yet you can't seem to articulate the standard in a simple scenario such as I have noted.
The objectively moral thing to do in any scenario is what is beneficial for the well-being and survival of the greatest amount of people.
Humans did not acquire any special “instinct to survive” by natural selection. Indeed, one of the prominent causes of death among humans these days is suicide
And can you guess why we instinctively try to stop people from committing suicide? Because it's the objectively wrong behavior for a member of a species with a survival instinct. Something, possibly illness or other circumstances, could have caused them to try to commit suicide.
, in contrast to any other animal. I am certain that lions possess every ounce of “the instinct to survive” that humans do, yet they do not punish their rapists and murderers.
They of course evolved differently than us.
Psychopaths and sociopaths--to the extent that any such categories of persons exist--are no less endowed with the will to survive than nuns are; the difference is that the former are indifferent to the suffering they cause others
They only care about their own well-being and survival and not others, which is why we say they have a personality disorder and call them psychopaths and sociopaths in the first place.
You can't even seem to decide who or what are to be the recipients and perpetrators of moral acts--societies, species, next-of-kin.
Everybody are to be recipients and perpetrators of course.
The fact is that it is individual persons who choose to act (or not act) morally, and one can treat another individual with utmost deference and moral regard while violating the dictates of one's society. E.g., the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 was a US federal law that criminalized giving aid, food or shelter to any fugitive slave, yet many people risked their freedom and livelihoods in doing so. Such moral acts have nothing to do with the “instinct to survive”.
You are a master at thinking like a psychopath or a sociopath. Of course moral people gave aid, food and shelter to fugitive slaves because they knew the slaves wanted to survive just like the people who helped them did.
 
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Logikal

Member
It's not a subjective standard, regardless that it might be personal. If it's something you "hold yourself to," in other words hold up to measure yourself against, then you've objectified it.

You are clearly using the wrong context to the word OBJECTIVE. In a moral context there is no reference to things or act being objectified.
What objective refers to is a type of truth. So when something is said to be OBJECTIVELY TRUE then the claim must hold universally, which implies the claim can never be false.

You are under some impression that when someone say something is objective you are using some grammar reference and then internalizing it.
You furthermore can't seem to live without authority telling you and others what to do. What do you mean standards are objective??? Authorities make the standards do they not?
 

Logikal

Member
Yes. But it doesn't define it as objective. And even philosophically while many do take the position of trying to define/defend objective morality, it is impossible to defend beyond a vague concept of having, as social animals, evolved a sense of pro-social behaviors that includes codes of conduct. But outside of this genetic coding there is nothing to suggest there is a objective definition of morality. And nor should their be. That is bad science and philosophy. People, even academically, claim it is hard to defend subjective morality, but subjective morality gives us the chance to realize and accept our errors and improve.

Did you look up NORMATIVE ETHICS at all? You show me a source that shows normative ethics other than OBJECTIVE. Objective means the truth value of a claim is universal and the truth value will never change. This means a objective true claim will never have false instances. An objective false claim remains false given the relevant details forever. So whether it is objectively true or objectively false the truth value will never change. For example:

In this way IF abortion were OBJECTIVELY WRONG then there are no exception no false cases where abortion would be permissible forever.
If there were a GOD, then Jesus was the manifestation of GOD in human flesh would hold true forever.
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Did you look up NORMATIVE ETHICS at all? You show me a source that shows normative ethics other than OBJECTIVE. Objective means the truth value of a claim is universal and the truth value will never change. This means a objective true claim will never have false instances. An objective false claim remains false given the relevant details forever. So whether it is objectively true or objectively false the truth value will never change. For example:

In this way IF abortion were OBJECTIVELY WRONG then there are no exception no false cases where abortion would be permissible forever.
If there were a GOD, then Jesus was the manifestation of GOD in human flesh would hold true forever.
A value could be objective, and thus beyond mere human opinion, yet not universal. It may be that moral values have evolved for their survival value, being instilled by evolution, and are thus objective, not being derived from human opinion or knowledge. In this case they would not be universal because they presumably wouldn’t have existed before they evolved, and they may change, perhaps drastically, in the future. On such a view the laws are not universally applicable, but they meet the criteria for objectivity.

A value could also be universal without being objective. Imagine a world in which all human beings agreed entirely upon a certain set of moral laws, a set which they developed themselves by a deliberate process of focused contemplation and debate. In this case, the values would be universal, being shared by all and thus applicable to all, yet they would be completely subjective. So objectivity does not equate to universality.
Objective vs. Universal Moral Values and Duties

This was written by a religious person who has actually understood my point.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Suppose there were objective standards for morality. Putting aside, for the moment, just how problematic that would be (after all, what would it mean, an "objective standard"?), do you think the existence of objective standards for a morality would be any more effective in practice at getting people to comply with that morality than subjective standards for the same morality? Why or why not?
I've been thinking about the evolution of objective morality lately...

I imagine myself as the prototypical and hypothetical "man". And here's what I've come up with:

Over the course of a man's life he comes to realize certain things and builds his own moral code based on his experiences. Some of that code has been informed by his rearing. But, for the most part, he adapts whatever his base values were to his own unique set of observations about life. When he passes that evolved moral and ethical code onto his offspring, or anyone else within his sphere of influence, he doesn't always explain how or why he made certain decisions about what the code will entail. He doesn't philosophically explain why he believes that telling mistruths is one of the roads to ruin. He simply says "Lying is bad!", and moves on with his day. Afterall, he's come to a reasonable conclusion about lying, so why should he have to explain it. It makes sense to him, and that's good enough, right?

As anyone who has accepted his moral code can attest, they will, for the most part, repeat and share said rule as an objective moral truth, though they aren't quite sure why. Their explanation can be as simple as "My daddy says lying is bad, so lying is bad." It's not until much later in the offspring's life that he'll have a chance to begin reconciling his own moral code with those of his father, deciding eventually which morals to retain and which to discard.

Notice, that at no point did I say that lying is objectively wrong. It's simply wrong within the worldview of the exemplary man...

And so, I believe, is true of morals guided by religion. Religious rules are nothing but a set of agreed upon parameters by which the pious live their lives. Necessary in that understanding is one of the beauties and draws of religion, simplicity. If someone or some thing already has a set of guidelines by which I can live my life, freeing my mind of the burden of having to create my own, then there's a certain appeal to that. The answers for the religious person are as simple as they are for the child... "My daddy says lying is bad, and that's good enough for me..."

There is nothing inherently wrong with subjection to that type of life. But where it's going to ultimately run into problems is with its defense through logical debate. For those who have never gone through the arduous journey of reasoning their way into a moral code, having personalized explanations for WHY something is good or bad, they are going to be left wanting when it comes to conversations like this, out of both lack of experience and lack of reasoning.

Nothing is inherently wrong, unless we personally agree that it is. The same is true for what is right. They are personalized constructs of behavior that are usually projected from the thinking man onto society as a whole. While I believe that my personal moral code is best for all humanity, I intellectually realize that I am in no position to enforce it as such.

One day I hope that Religion will make the same realization.
 

Logikal

Member
A value could be objective, and thus beyond mere human opinion, yet not universal. It may be that moral values have evolved for their survival value, being instilled by evolution, and are thus objective, not being derived from human opinion or knowledge. In this case they would not be universal because they presumably wouldn’t have existed before they evolved, and they may change, perhaps drastically, in the future. On such a view the laws are not universally applicable, but they meet the criteria for objectivity.

A value could also be universal without being objective. Imagine a world in which all human beings agreed entirely upon a certain set of moral laws, a set which they developed themselves by a deliberate process of focused contemplation and debate. In this case, the values would be universal, being shared by all and thus applicable to all, yet they would be completely subjective. So objectivity does not equate to universality.
Objective vs. Universal Moral Values and Duties

This was written by a religious person who has actually understood my point.

It does not good mix someone else's words. I specifically stated objective truth values are and MUST BE FOREVER and universal. Can you provide some examples of objective claims that are NOT UNIVERSAL?

It seems you notion is flawed because YOU think if a human makes something it becomes subjective immediately. Human being have nothing to do with what is OBJECTIVE or not. If there were no human beings there would still be objective facts.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
It does not good mix someone else's words. I specifically stated objective truth values are and MUST BE FOREVER and universal. Can you provide some examples of objective claims that are NOT UNIVERSAL?
Of course. If I say "you exist" it is objectively true now but it won't be forever because in 200 years you would have died and saying "you exist" would be objectively false.
 

Logikal

Member
I've been thinking about the evolution of objective morality lately...

I imagine myself as the prototypical and hypothetical "man". And here's what I've come up with:

Over the course of a man's life he comes to realize certain things and builds his own moral code based on his experiences. Some of that code has been informed by his rearing. But, for the most part, he adapts whatever his base values were to his own unique set of observations about life. When he passes that evolved moral and ethical code onto his offspring, or anyone else within his sphere of influence, he doesn't always explain how or why he made certain decisions about what the code will entail. He doesn't philosophically explain why he believes that telling mistruths is one of the roads to ruin. He simply says "Lying is bad!", and moves on with his day. Afterall, he's come to a reasonable conclusion about lying, so why should he have to explain it. It makes sense to him, and that's good enough, right?

As anyone who has accepted his moral code can attest, they will, for the most part, repeat and share said rule as an objective moral truth, though they aren't quite sure why. Their explanation can be as simple as "My daddy says lying is bad, so lying is bad." It's not until much later in the offspring's life that he'll have a chance to begin reconciling his own moral code with those of his father, deciding eventually which morals to retain and which to discard.

Notice, that at no point did I say that lying is objectively wrong. It's simply wrong within the worldview of the exemplary man...

And so, I believe, is true of morals guided by religion. Religious rules are nothing but a set of agreed upon parameters by which the pious live their lives. Necessary in that understanding is one of the beauties and draws of religion, simplicity. If someone or some thing already has a set of guidelines by which I can live my life, freeing my mind of the burden of having to create my own, then there's a certain appeal to that. The answers for the religious person are as simple as they are for the child... "My daddy says lying is bad, and that's good enough for me..."

There is nothing inherently wrong with subjection to that type of life. But where it's going to ultimately run into problems is with its defense through logical debate. For those who have never gone through the arduous journey of reasoning their way into a moral code, having personalized explanations for WHY something is good or bad, they are going to be left wanting when it comes to conversations like this, out of both lack of experience and lack of reasoning.

Nothing is inherently wrong, unless we personally agree that it is. The same is true for what is right. They are personalized constructs of behavior that are usually projected from the thinking man onto society as a whole. While I believe that my personal moral code is best for all humanity, I intellectually realize that I am in no position to enforce it as such.

One day I hope that Religion will make the same realization.


What you describe is what every average Joe believes who has not been made aware morals has a specific category in the field of philosophy and is well defined in that field or has been bamboozled to believe everything is subjective because that is what people who careless about philosophy been taught to think.

If you look up normative ethics you may rethink your viewpoint. What you think and the populous agree to means nothing as far as the topic goes. It is not majority rules in proper or pure moral theory.
 

Logikal

Member
Of course. If I say "you exist" it is objectively true now but it won't be forever because in 200 years you would have died and saying "you exist" would be objectively false.

Well here we discover your lack of comprehension! You cannot make VAGUE claims when you have SPECIFIC information. That is you cannot WITHHOLD RELEVANT data. If you add specifics to your improper claim you will get a FOREVER TRUTH: "you exist as of 4-13-2017" this truth value will never change. You could break it down by days of the week the date and the time of the claim and its truth value will never change.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Did you look up NORMATIVE ETHICS at all?
No need for me to look it up. I am philosophy minor, and I learned long ago different terms, concepts, and approaches towards morality and ethics, and I've read a good deal of primary sources. Here for you is a list of readings:
The Definition of Morality (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Virtue Ethics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Consequentialism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Deontological Ethics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
These are not quick and short reads, but they will teach you how complicated and multi-faceted the debates and arguments of morality are.

Objective means the truth value of a claim is universal and the truth value will never change.
Correct: However, morality is not static, and it has changed, varied, and has had great variations among our many cultures.
In this way IF abortion were OBJECTIVELY WRONG then there are no exception no false cases where abortion would be permissible forever.
Except abortion isn't objectively wrong.
If there were a GOD, then Jesus was the manifestation of GOD in human flesh would hold true forever.
If there is a god, that does not automatically make Jesus real or a manifestation of god. Could be this god is Zeus. Or Osiris. Krishna, perhaps even. Or, more likely in my opinion, something we humans have never thought of before.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Nothing is inherently wrong, unless we personally agree that it is. The same is true for what is right.
Except that objectively speaking we are members of a species that evolved a set of instincts like the survival instinct and some behaviors are objectively inherently right and some are objectively inherently wrong for members of a species with a survival instinct.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
Well here we discover your lack of comprehension! You cannot make VAGUE claims when you have SPECIFIC information. That is you cannot WITHHOLD RELEVANT data. If you add specifics to your improper claim you will get a FOREVER TRUTH: "you exist as of 4-13-2017" this truth value will never change. You could break it down by days of the week the date and the time of the claim and its truth value will never change.
You did say "MUST BE FOREVER". Are you now saying that something that is true now mustn't be true forever to be objectively true? Do you really have to change "you exist" into "you exist as of 4-13-2017" to try to rescue your reasoning?
 

Logikal

Member
No need for me to look it up. I am philosophy minor, and I learned long ago different terms, concepts, and approaches towards morality and ethics, and I've read a good deal of primary sources. Here for you is a list of readings:
The Definition of Morality (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Virtue Ethics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Consequentialism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Deontological Ethics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
These are not quick and short reads, but they will teach you how complicated and multi-faceted the debates and arguments of morality are.


Correct: However, morality is not static, and it has changed, varied, and has had great variations among our many cultures.

Except abortion isn't objectively wrong.

If there is a god, that does not automatically make Jesus real or a manifestation of god. Could be this god is Zeus. Or Osiris. Krishna, perhaps even. Or, more likely in my opinion, something we humans have never thought of before.

Let me start by saying the claims about Abortion and Jesus were EXAMPLES and not my personal beliefs. If you read the context of my post you would see I was explaining CONCEPTS not actually making claims.

No one questions that there are DIFFERENT viewpoints on morality. I never stated anything about how cultures define words. That does not mean that people can JUST MAKE STUFF UP. What is next we reinvent the definition of CIRCLE?

I specifically only spoke on the one and only relevant view of MORALITY which is unquestionable as a part of NORMATIVE ETHICS. There may be OTHER forms of moral theory but they are NOT NORMATIVE.
 

Logikal

Member
You did say "MUST BE FOREVER". Are you now saying that something that is true now mustn't be true forever to be objectively true? Do you really have to change "you exist" into "you exist as of 4-13-2017" to try to rescue your reasoning?

You are confusing what is practical to what is objectively correct. Do people actually speak the way I suggested NO. If they did the claims they made would necessarily objective claims.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
No one questions that there are DIFFERENT viewpoints on morality.
The objectively moral thing to do is what is most beneficial and/or least detrimental to the well-being and survival of the society and its citizens. People have different viewpoints on what IS beneficial or detrimental.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
No one questions that there are DIFFERENT viewpoints on morality.
Which proves morality cannot be objective given their have been myriads of viewpoints and definitions and ethics and codes of conduct.
What is next we reinvent the definition of CIRCLE?
As a circle is mathematically defined, it is an objective concept.
I specifically only spoke on the one and only relevant view of MORALITY
There is no "one and only relevant" view of morality. Perhaps you should read some snippets of John Rawls, Robert Nozick, Garret Hardin, Jeremy Bentham, John Stewart Mill, Merry Shelly, Friedman Milton, John Keynes, and Friedrich Engels to expose yourself to how diversified morality and ethics are and to realize the futility of trying to only uphold one particular definition of morality.
And then there is war, where our day-to-day concepts of morality are violently and viciously replaced with the ethics of kill or be killed.
 

Logikal

Member
The objectively moral thing to do is what is most beneficial and/or least detrimental to the well-being and survival of the society and its citizens. People have different viewpoints on what IS beneficial or detrimental.

That is how neanderthals thought. You are supposed to be a human being! Why are you doing that? Beasts of the field do what is most beneficial to them as well. You are raising why HUMANS are different from BEASTS of the field if they act the same way.
 
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Logikal

Member
Which proves morality cannot be objective given their have been myriads of viewpoints and definitions and ethics and codes of conduct.

As a circle is mathematically defined, it is an objective concept.

There is no "one and only relevant" view of morality. Perhaps you should read some snippets of John Rawls, Robert Nozick, Garret Hardin, Jeremy Bentham, John Stewart Mill, Merry Shelly, Friedman Milton, John Keynes, and Friedrich Engels to expose yourself to how diversified morality and ethics are and to realize the futility of trying to only uphold one particular definition of morality.
And then there is war, where our day-to-day concepts of morality are violently and viciously replaced with the ethics of kill or be killed.


Because there are different viewpoints on morality does not mean that morality cannot be objective. This is a classical fallacy from a Philosophy student? You claim to study philosophy right?

Put this in logical form and think about it. If you like we can go over why it is a fallacy but put it in LOGICAL FORM FIRST.

Again you are using the term objective WRONGLY in this context. You need better understanding of concepts.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
That is how neanderthals thought. You are supposed to be a human being! Why are you doing that? Beasts of the field do what is most beneficial to them as well. You are raising why HUMANS are different from BEASTS of the field if they act the same way.
What?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
This is a classical fallacy from a Philosophy student? You claim to study philosophy right?
No. I do study philosophy, but if you think my thoughts reflect the average philosophy student you are painfully wrong. Especially when I've mentioned it at least twice now that academics and philosophers themselves do not like taking a position of subjective morality. However, those that do defend it, when they do it well, it is usually respected because it is regarded as a difficult subject to defend.
Now, if you would drop the assumptions that would be appreciated.

Again you are using the term objective WRONGLY in this context. You need better understanding of concepts.
Taken from the OED:
Objective: 1. A thing or class of things external to or independent of the mind
That means something that is objective exists independent of us. There is nothing to demonstrate that any concept of morality exists outside of the culture that follows that given set or morals, except that as social animals we seem to have evolved the pro-social features that give us methods of group cohesion such as morality and ethics.
 
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