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Are people born inherently atheist?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course they do. For instance, Christians disbelieve in the existence of Thor. Thor is a god.

If I believe in a god, it cannot be said that I do not believe in a god. You wish to impose upon "a god" a set: believing in a god is not enough it must be that one believes in all gods. That's not what the OED states.

And in case the capital "G" is important to you, Muslims disbelieve in the idea that Jesus is God... IOW, they disbelieve in a God.
The capitol "G" is important only because Christians, Jews, Muslims, and some related religions conceptualize God in this manner (not as a deity but as the deity that exists apart from worship or belief and that is, usually, incorrectly understood by whomever it is that an individual engages in a theological dispute with).

But by the definition you provided, merely believing in one god (or even many gods) wouldn't make a person not an atheist.
It would. They believe in a god.

I'm saying that regardless of its source, it's a bad definition that doesn't match how the word is actually used.

If you wish to rely on usage, check out COCA and the BNC. You will fail here too, but not entirely. I'm not interested so much in usage as sometimes usage fails to clarify. People do not use words, in general, with logic in mind.
Rather than cling to one part and say that IT'S right even though the rest is wrong, I suggest just discarding the definition and moving on.

1) You are using an ambiguity inherent in the language to interpret the definition incorrectly
2) Even if you were not, defining atheism as you seem to wish makes it such an idiotic, meaningless concept we might as well call it ignorance. That's what a lack of belief is: ignorance. If I don't believe that "phl8ies" are "bioude" it's because I have no ******* idea what either of these mean. If you can't comprehend even basic concepts about what people attribute to God, such that God to you is a foreign word you can't begin to comprehend, then by all means assert you lack a belief.
3) Were your definition to be the desired one, atheism is as meaningless as "sliht". It's a lack of belief of an English word. Can someone who doesn't speak English say they believe in God? No. They don't know the ******* word. "But it isn't a word it's a concept!" Duh that's the ******* point. Rocks are atheists because they have no belief in god. So are fairies and unicorns and so on. These don't exist, but they certainly don't have a belief in god.

EDIT: recent studies show that phlogiston is an atheist. Why? Phlogiston lacks a belief in god. Phlogiston is the latest addition to the atheist group which includes "sdfjli", unicorns, and fictional deities in fantasy novels, all of which lack a belief in god.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Rather, from my perspective you're just not listening.

Let me reword then: is there a content there to be listened to?

I honestly don't think there is. Did you expect me to find any?

I really don't know. You can't reasonably expect me to find it, at the very least.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
If I believe in a god, it cannot be said that I do not believe in a god.

Yes, it can. When you say a person "does not believe in a god", it's not the same as saying the person "doesn't believe in any gods". A dictionary should be more precise. A Christian can rightly claim "I don't believe in a god", because there are gods they don't believe in.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I won't deny that it clashes (a bit surprisingly) with the esthetical sense of many people, but there is nothing absurd in it.

You have just distinguised among them, quite clearly at that.

How did you do that if there is no meaningful distinction to tell them apart?
I am arguing that atheism is essentially the denial of god, which is adequately captured in the assertion of the negation of "I believe." I am arguing against the concept of an ontologically real lack of a belief in god, and that is the absurdity. I am arguing against outhouse, really, which is where this began. I am arguing that, essentially, if you are not aware of a thing, it has the same ontological status as everything else you are not aware of. I chose three examples--one known to be, one fantasy, and one whose status is unknown--in an attempt to demonstrate that if they are completely unknown, they all have the same ontological status: neither real, unreal nor judgeable as real. I can judge them, because to me they are known. If we propose that my knowledge is adequate for some other person to be an atheist, then I am essential to any person being an atheist.

Go me.

Edit: Additionally, it was argued that denial of god isn't necessary for some defintions of atheism; I can argue that it fits in just fine with every definition of atheism given.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I am arguing that atheism is essentially the denial of god, which is adequately captured in the assertion of the negation of "I believe."

That being a concept of Atheism that can only exist after being presented with a conception of god.

Fair enough. A bit needlessly restrictive, but fair.



I am arguing against the concept of an ontologically real lack of a belief in god, and that is the absurdity. I am arguing against outhouse, really, which is where this began. I am arguing that, essentially, if you are not aware of a thing, it has the same ontological status as everything else you are not aware of.

Again, I agree. It does indeed.


I chose three examples--one known to be, one fantasy, and one whose status is unknown--in an attempt to demonstrate that if they are completely unknown, they all have the same ontological status: neither real, unreal nor judgeable as real. I can judge them, because to me they are known. If we propose that my knowledge is adequate for some other person to be an atheist, then I am essential to any person being an atheist.

Go me.

Edit: Additionally, it was argued that denial of god isn't necessary for some defintions of atheism; I can argue that it fits in just fine with every definition of atheism given.

You can argue it, but it is not correct.

One does not need to have a known concept to oppose (theism and/or god) to be unparticipating of the belief in that concept.

Atheism is the default until and unless a concept of god is offered and agreed with.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
That being a concept of Atheism that can only exist after being presented with a conception of god.

Fair enough. A bit needlessly restrictive, but fair.

Restrictive, but not by me. It's restricted by the so-called laws of thought laid down by Aristotle which are the foundation of Western logic.


Again, I agree. It does indeed.




You can argue it, but it is not correct.

One does not need to have a known concept to oppose (theism and/or god) to be unparticipating of the belief in that concept.

One does, if the belief is anything about you, if it is a property of you. But it's really about me.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
What is this obsession with meaningfulness, Kilgore?

Because a meaningless label isn't really a label at all. More broadly, my "obsession" with meaningfulness is rooted in organizing the world (information) in a useful and applicable way.

A term doesn't have to be meaningful or applicable to the discussion at hand to be a legitimate term, and what's moot in one context may well be relevant in another.

Indeed, and an infant is an atheist in the same context that a rock is an atheist. Personally, I don't find such categorizations useful or meaningful in any way.

It may make no sense in most contexts to call a rock non-verbal or inanimate, but that doesn't invalidate the terms.

It invalidates their meaningfulness. Anything that isn't valid sensically, is functionally invalid in terms of describing anything useful about the world.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I was. There is a reason we don't have words for people who believe or do not believe in Russell's teapot as well as a host of other such examples. There's a reason that atheism has the ending it does - ism. We can certainly assert that atheism is merely lacking a belief in god such that rocks, babies, people who don't speak English and don't know the word "god", etc., are all automatically atheist but I have found that most of the time those who do such things seem to have ulterior motives.
My motive is clarity of language. I've found that the definitions of "atheist" that exclude babies tend to be either transparently arbitrary or logically unviable... and don't actually reflect how the word is used.

And I've found that most of the time, ulterior motives work in the other direction: it seems to me that when people object to the term "atheist". It's as if their mental image of "atheist" is Richard Dawkins (or Madalyn Murray O'Hair for the old school), and they think something like "he's nasty and evil but babies are sweet and innocent. Something as good as a baby can't be something as bad as an atheist."

And agnosticism, especially the way Huxley defined it, would be beyond the capability of a baby, since it's (in Huxley's formulation) an APPROACH to claims akin to skepticism or (in most modern usage) a positive claim that the question of God is unanswerable.

Hence the ludicrous proposition that without a clear definition of god one can't even assert that one doesn't believe in god or the not quite as bad claim that disbelief and a lack of belief are somehow equivalent.
You don't need to have a clear definition of "god" if you define atheism in terms of lack of belief. Generally, if I can't even conceive of a thing, then I can be sure that I haven't accepted that the thing is grounded in reality.

However, if you define atheism in terms of rejection of belief, and if you require someone to reject all gods to be an atheist (which we need to do if we want to avoid the absurd case where a person is simultaneously a theist and an atheist), then we do need a clear picture of exactly what needs to be rejected.

Huxley coined agnostic for a reason: there wasn't an adequate term to define someone who didn't know whether god exists (and therefore can't be said to believe in god) but who didn't disbelieve either. Of course, there's no reason his definition must hold now (language doesn't work like that), but too often in discussions such as these all terms become meaningless in an attempt to dogmatically defend what appears to be some odd philosophical objection to having theists gain "the upper hand" in some way.
It's not an objection to theists having the upper hand; it's an appeal to rationality in language. A definition like "an atheist is a person who is not a theist" is perfectly straightforward and, IMO, matches how people use the term.

OTOH, I've yet to see a definition using rejection of belief that matches how people actually use the term "atheist". The extreme effort that I've seen people go to in order to come up with contrived definitions makes me think that something else is going on: atheists are "bad", babies are "good", so they reject applying a perfectly appropriate label based on emotional baggage they've attached to the terms.

When someone denies that there is a god, or believes that there is no god, or disbelieves in any god, then they can be said to be an atheist. I prefer to be more inclusive and say atheists also reject other spiritual notions but I would certainly not try to tell someone who believes in e.g., souls that they can't be an atheist. The primary, central definition is right in the word and it doesn't refer to souls, the afterlife, or other religious notions but to god. It has the suffix it does because it is a doctrine or a system of belief (it informs a worldview).
It also has an "a" prefix. Just in terms of the structure of the word, it would work just as well to interpret "atheism" as "NOT the belief system of god(s)" as it would "the belief system of 'not god(s)'."

It exists as a word because even today theistic worldviews shape our understanding, culture, concepts, language, politics, etc. It would make no sense in a region where there was no concept of god. It loses all meaning to equate it with an infinity of words that could exist if we wished to all waste time thinking of other things that exist at least in thought or which are made up on the spot and added -ist or -ism to make up words to define the denial of these entities.

To be an atheist is to make a statement of belief: "I do not believe in God (or gods)." We make the word meaningless by trying to pretend that babies are atheists because they don't have a belief about god. It's one thing to ask whether children (not babies) are inclined towards theology if exposed to it and will tend to invent at least some proto-theology or some spirituality, but it makes as much sense to ask if babies are atheists as it does to ask if they're communist or Buddhist or a creationist.
Are babies not also non-smokers? Non-swimmers? Apolitical? A person doesn't have to reason his way into a label for it to apply, and this fact doesn't render the label meaningless.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
My motive is clarity of language. I've found that the definitions of "atheist" that exclude babies tend to be either transparently arbitrary or logically unviable... and don't actually reflect how the word is used.

And defining infants (or other things uncapable of belief) as atheists, is how the word is actually used?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
And defining infants (or other things uncapable of belief) as atheists, is how the word is actually used?

It is not meaningless when used properly as a description that someone is not a theist.

Also as posted earlier, not refutable.

A child born on a island is somehow raised alone, turns into a boy who turns into a man. A ship finds the man and says thank god your alive. the man says who what where when. The boat captain proclaims the man is an atheist. The captain is correct, the man is not a theist.

What you now need to do is determine at what age this person became an atheist, you cannot because he was an atheist since birth.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
What you now need to do is determine at what age this person became an atheist, you cannot because he was an atheist since birth.

Irrelevant. This has no impact on his lack of capacity for belief when he was an infant. We're talking about infants being atheists. Infants aren't capable of holding beliefs, so describing one, specific non-belief is meaningless. An argument which relies on redefining infants as adults is seriously flawed. I expect even you can see this.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Then maybe this will help.

Its the major mistake I see most people making regarding this definition.


Atheism is not a title of what one is

It is a title of what one "is not" A theist.
Atheist is "what one is not" or it is a classification of people who share a status in regards to a belief. It's both, but when you conflate one with the other you end up with ignorance being a deciding factor in "what one is."
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Atheist is "what one is not" or it is a classification of people who share a status in regards to a belief. It's both, but when you conflate one with the other you end up with ignorance being a deciding factor in "what one is."

yes and no

One is defined by what he lacks FIRST, and it doesn't matter how one gets to a lack of theism, one is not a theist, and if your not a theist your a atheist.

Once we determine what one does not possess, [theism] then we can run them down the funnel and determine what kind of an atheist we are dealing with. Implicit or explicit.

There is implicit and explicit atheism. Either way BOTH are not theist.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Irrelevant. This has no impact on his lack of capacity for belief when he was an infant. We're talking about infants being atheists. Infants aren't capable of holding beliefs, so describing one, specific non-belief is meaningless. An argument which relies on redefining infants as adults is seriously flawed. I expect even you can see this.

Its not about lack of capacity. Its about what the child never was. The child was never a theist.

One does not have to make a choice to be a atheist.

One doesn't have to make a choice to be a theist, either you are, or you are not.


My daughter is 7, she has never been a theist and has never believed in a deity, she has been a atheist from birth.

There was no time in her life when she was a theist.

That's how it is used properly in a sentence is not meaningless. It is a fact.

So I would ask you to be careful when your telling me I'm flawed for how I describe my own child. I am not flawed nor is the description, its factually the truth.
 
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