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Are people born inherently atheist?

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Except some say that if you accept even a single god concept, even if you deny that it should be labelled with the word 'god', then you are a theist.

The problem with the above is that, while I acknowledge that concepts differ among conceptualizers, a concept of "god" is a classification.

I have a concept of unicorn. In my mind, unicorns are of course pink with fractal patterns down one side and rainbow tattoos on the other, but I am not so particular that if someone showed me The Last Unicorn I wouldn't be able, or would have a problem with, classifying the depictions in the film as unicorns. When I say I do not believe in unicorns, I am denying that given any entity x, if that entity is a unicorn then I do not believe it exist. What you say above may seem to imply in some cases, as for example if you believe unicorns are rhinos that lost one of their horns and I too believe in rhinos. But what I am accepting as a consequence of my belief in rhinos is not a concept of unicorn. It's one of rhinos. I accept the entity or class of entities that you refer to by the label unicorn, but I accept them as the concept "rhino".

So everyone accepts concepts which others consider should be labelled with 'god'.

That's true. It does not then follow that everyone accepts a concept of god. Concepts are internal (neural) representations that both are and belong to categories. Just because we both believe that some entity exist yet only one of us assigns to this entity the label god does not entail that we both believe in god.

Luckily, the intersubjective nature of language limits the potential chaos that can result thanks to the inevitable differences among different subjective representation of the "same" concept. If could mean that by "god" you mean more what I do when I say "god", but because language both enables and is shaped by communication a good deal of overlap emerges necessarily. Chances are, if you say "I don't believe in god" I won't assume you're talking about a duck, and if I say "I'm an atheist" you won't follow up by asking whether I worship fairies like gods but without referring to them as such.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
That's true. It does not then follow that everyone accepts a concept of god. Concepts are internal (neural) representations that both are and belong to categories. Just because we both believe that some entity exist yet only one of us assigns to this entity the label god does not entail that we both believe in god.

Luckily, the intersubjective nature of language limits the potential chaos that can result thanks to the inevitable differences among different subjective representation of the "same" concept. If could mean that by "god" you mean more what I do when I say "god", but because language both enables and is shaped by communication a good deal of overlap emerges necessarily. Chances are, if you say "I don't believe in god" I won't assume you're talking about a duck, and if I say "I'm an atheist" you won't follow up by asking whether I worship fairies like gods but without referring to them as such.

I don't see anything in your message with which I strongly disagree. I'd only note that each person categorizes as he or she pleases. I might object to my neighbor speaking of money as a god, but I couldn't declare him to be wrong about it. He apparently defines 'gods' as 'anything which we worship.' I'd find that to be outside of the normal conception, but at the same time I'd find him more interesting than most of my other neighbors who never venture far outside of the norm. He's a thinker and a poet, is all.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If he calls himself scientologist we can ask him what his view on gods are if we are only interested in that aspect of his beliefs. No need for us to define him as some atheist if he says he's a scientologist.
But is he an atheist anyway? He's not a theist.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
But is he an atheist anyway? He's not a theist.
He is a theist. "In Scientology, the concept of God is expressed as the Eighth Dynamic—the urge toward existence as infinity. This is also identified as the Supreme Being. As the Eighth Dynamic, the Scientology concept of God rests at the very apex of universal survival." Does Scientology have a concept of God? You could have just checked you know before you asked.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
You wish to define atheism by saying that if one isn't a theist, then one is necessarily an atheist, correct? That is, the only thing one needs to know about anybody to determine whether they are an atheist is if they are not a theist.

Having defined an atheist as "not a theist" you cannot then simply ask this:




In order for that question to have any meaning at all, we require a definition for theist. Otherwise, we have no idea when anybody may or may not be a theist.


Define god. Some people who call themselves theists do so because they believe that human beings can be gods, and not those like Jesus or Caesar who were thought to be more than human, but gods because of the psychological state and mental outlook they have. In other words, for these theists belief in god means believing in something every atheist does (humans). So either we're all theists all the time (because we all believe in humans) or we have to define more clearly what it means to become a theist such that we can then say whoever is not a theist is an atheist.





Of course. It's an attempt to simplify the issue of defining atheism by using only one criteria that avoids having to say anything about an atheist except that they can't be a theist. The problem is that this makes us no better off. If we're worried about trying to define whether somebody is fit to stand trial, and decide we can make this easy by saying "everyone is fit to stand trial except those who are psychotic" we cannot then lie back, assured that everything is solved, until we are very clear about how to determine who is psychotic.

The same thing is true here. We've defined atheism very precisely but that one, very precise criterion depends upon knowing exactly what makes someone a theist and presumably (since we'll probably define a theist as one who believes in at least one god) we must define exactly what we mean by god. Otherwise, our very precise definition isn't precise at all. An atheist is anyone who isn't a theist, only as things stand we can decide arbitrarily that X person isn't a theist because we don't think what they worship is really a god, or y person is even though they claim not to worship a god, etc.

Simply shifting the definitional burden by defining one thing entirely in terms of another only solves the problem if we have precisely defined that other thing, and in this case until that time we can't ever say anybody ever becomes a theist (except arbitrarily, that is).

Defining theism is not necessary to be atheist. Not theist is fine and we established the theist determines what they do or don't believe.

A person is still a weak atheist when rejecting an particular god concept. A strong atheist has to reject all concepts not just ones heard of.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
A person is still a weak atheist when rejecting an particular god concept. A strong atheist has to reject all concepts not just ones heard of.

How does one reject a concept which one has never heard?

Are you saying that one must reject the word itself... 'God'... even without knowing how it's being defined (its concept)?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
How does one reject a concept which one has never heard?

Are you saying that one must reject the word itself... 'God'... even without knowing how it's being defined (its concept)?
You can still not have an opinion on something even if you know all the concepts involved. Consider the following statement:

"Stephen Spielberg is wearing a blue shirt today."

I understand all the terms in this sentence; I know who Stephen Spielberg is and I know what a blue shirt is, but I still have no opinion on whether the statement is true or false:

- do I believe that Stephen Spielberg is wearing a blue shirt? No. While it's certainly plausible that he might be, I have no reason to believe he's wearing that particular colour.
- do I believe that Stephen Spielberg is NOT wearing a blue shirt? No. As I said, the idea that he could wear a blue shirt is completely plausible.

Effectively, I am a "weak atheist" about Stephen Spielberg's blue shirt. I would also be a "weak atheist" on the matter if I didn't know who Stephen Spielberg was (or what a shirt is), but these aren't NECESSARY for me to be a "weak atheist".
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
As for the infant example, we use it to rattle this pervasive idea that atheism is a rejection of theism and, thus, a concept in itself. We use it to present the concept that atheism, "technically," is no concept at all, that it's, in fact, the epistemic default position.

If someone needs to resort to calling infants "atheists" in order to bolster their argument or position, they may want to rethink their position. I've never had a problem successfully arguing for rationalisim and atheism without relying on meaningless concepts and distinctions.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
How does one reject a concept which one has never heard?

Are you saying that one must reject the word itself... 'God'... even without knowing how it's being defined (its concept)?

I'm saying that a person can reject a concept of a deity and still be a weak atheist, like reject yahweh but still remain agnostic and open minded. Strong atheists, which I like to call gnostic atheists have determined there is no god without having to go through every single god concept.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, if you find it meaningless to be able to differentiate between people who are theists and people who are not theists by calling them different things be my guest

An Englishman was visiting Belfast and happened upon a heated debate between an Irish Catholic and an Irish Protestant. One noticed the man and waved him over. He explained to the Englishman what the issue was and asked whether the Englishman was Catholic or Protestant. The Englishman responded "I don't believe in God". Without a moment's pause, the other man said "Yes, but which God don't you believe in?"

There's a deeper problem than the name of the label. The real root of the problem is the assumption that a true "lack of belief" in something should, or even reasonably can, be desired to have a label. If we look at language use, we don't tend to find people talking about lacking a belief (and I did this the other day using the tools I would use were I running an actual study, so it wasn't completely bogus, but by no means did I take the necessary care and planning for an experimental design).

There are often ideologies, beliefs, tenets, and so forth defined at least in part in opposition to one another.

We have the terms "pro-life" and the term "pro-choice". We don't have one that indicates non-commitment despite the importance of the issue.

We have conservatives and liberals, but the closest we get to "lack of belief" is "undecided".

We even have "team Edward" and "team Jacob", but my position isn't "I don't believe team Edward is better or that team Jacob is better" it is is I couldn't give a ****.

Nor is this only about pairs. There are lots of sociopolitical positions/ideologies that can be grouped into categories like environmentalism, welfare, power of the federal government, gun rights, the mental health system, education, etc.

I did my senior thesis for one of my majors on modality as an extension of previous work on epistemic modality. The model I used for my linguistic framework is called cognitive linguistics. It is opposed, rather fundamentally, to another central framework- generative linguistics. Unfortunately, there wasn't any professor with the requisite knowledge to evaluate the argument of my thesis, so I needed not only to support the argument but also do so in a way that explained a lot of technical terms. A few were kind enough to read my drafts to tell me if it was clear to a person without the right background, despite how insufferably boring they found it. By reading my drafts, they learned enough to get a gist of the two main positions. However, they couldn't have cared less.

What's relevant is
1) They lacked a belief in that they didn't know whether one side was right or not and thus couldn't believe either was
&
2) It never occurred to anybody what term we might use to describe the fact that they neither believed cognitive linguistics was the right approach to language nor believed it wasn't.

There are an infinite number of propositions one can make an epistemic judgement of, from important ones like whether "x should be done about global warming" to inconsequential ones like "there is a person in Britain right now who just dropped a pen". However, we almost never think to develop any term to describe non-commitment as we have general ones already: "I don't know", "I'm not sure", etc.

The reason the term "atheism" exists is because it is not of this type, and neither is "weak atheism". For if it were, to say "I don't believe in god" would have to mean "it's not true that I believe god doesn't exist, so therefore I acknowledge the possibility god might". If it were simply like saying "I don't believe either team Jacob is better or that team Edward is", we wouldn't have the word. We'd just use those we do all the time for all the countless instances where we neither believe nor disbelieve because we don't know and perhaps don't care either.



If he calls himself scientologist we can ask him what his view on gods are if we are only interested in that aspect of his beliefs

Scientologists do believe in a supreme, omnipotent being, but they do not refer to it as god. Neither do people who don't speak English. If you want to inquire as to their beliefs in a way that won't mean you end up with theists who believe humans are gods and atheists who believe in supremely powerful immortal entities, then you need to define what you mean by god.



We define weak atheism as an absence of belief and an absence of disbelief in gods.

Beliefs are evaluations of propositions (or can be formulated as such). Here's a proposition: "A god or gods exist". That is a truth-bearing statement (i.e., it is either true or false but not both). Even if you say you don't know, that's a belief statement.

"It is impossible to assert something without expressing a belief."
Davis, W. A. (2003). Meaning, expression and thought. Cambridge University Press.

To say one neither believes god exists nor disbelieves is to make an assertion and, as noted above, necessarily a belief.

The concept of "god" represented in your brain is "defined" for the most part by relations to other concepts or shared propertiesy e.g., the neural representation of the Greek pantheon, church, Jesus, Allah, immortality, omnipotence, etc. You do not, I presume, believe that Zeus is real. Nor is there any entity or entities that you relate your concept to that you believe exist. The concept, which does exist, has the property that you do not apply it to anything because you do not believe there is anything you can apply it to.

The greek word atheos literally means "godless, without god(s)". Not disbelieving in gods. The added meaning of disbelieving in gods came later.

Classical languages was one of my majors. The above is partly true. Greek religion was defined by practice not faith. Everybody believed in the gods, but some did not honor them and in particular would refuse to participate in civic cults. Christians were atheists. They not only had a god but worshipped that god. However, they did not perform religion (religion was performance). It also meant being abandoned by the gods. The term, as you say, had nothing to do with belief because what connected one to the gods was practice. However, at least as early as the 16th century the romance languages (including French, which is what the English comes from) kept the spirit of the term. There were no gods to honor and connection to god was through belief, so the same idea was present it's just that religion had changed. But this doesn't really matter. No Greek would ever say that a child was born atheos unless they were cursed by the gods or something.
What is a "default epistemic stance"?
There is none:

"Whenever we consider a proposition, there are three different attitudes we can take toward it. First, we can believe it or accept it as true. Second, we can disbelieve it, i.e. believe that it is false or believe its negation. Third, we can withhold belief in it or suspend judgment. We may illustrate these attitudes by reflecting on the attitudes of the theist, the atheist, and the agnostic toward the proposition that God exists."

Lemos, N. M. (2007). An introduction to the theory of knowledge. Cambridge University Press.

An agnostic, someone who says of some proposition like "god exists" that they withhold belief in the truth of the proposition, are still making belief claims. They do not believe there is or isn't because they do not know, but that entails that the concept of god they have is not one they believe they can apply to anyting.

Weak atheism isn't a stance, it's the absence of a stance.
I understand how you are defining it. It's just quite literally physically impossible. The exception is if you don't know the language.
 
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AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
You can still not have an opinion on something even if you know all the concepts involved.

OK, but that's not how I understood the claim.

The claim was that we can reject a concept even without hearing anything about that concept.

Can I reject the concept of forkinberle?

I don't think so. I could reject the word itself, I guess, but how could I reject the concept (definition) of the word without even hearing it?

Effectively, I am a "weak atheist" about Stephen Spielberg's blue shirt. I would also be a "weak atheist" on the matter if I didn't know who Stephen Spielberg was (or what a shirt is), but these aren't NECESSARY for me to be a "weak atheist".

And if you didn't know what 'wear' meant or 'today' or 'is' or 'blue'?

I don't see how I could reject the sentence, the claim, without finding any meaning in it. I could only reject the words themselves, as some reject the word 'God'.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
We have conservatives and liberals, but the closest we get to "lack of belief" is "undecided".
"Apolitical".

The reason the term "atheism" exists is because it is not of this type, and neither is "weak atheism". For if it were, to say "I don't believe in god" would have to mean "it's not true that I believe god doesn't exist, so therefore I acknowledge the possibility god might".
No, it wouldn't, because that would be jumping to conclusions.

"I don't believe" just means "I don't believe". You're making assumptions if you infer that "I don't believe" means "I don't believe because I'm undecided."

There can be a range of reasons why a person might not believe, whether it's because they've never considered the claim, they've considered it but didn't come to a conclusion about it, they've decided that the claim is false on its merits, or they've accepted some other mutually exclusive claim.

You can't tell which one of these is going on just from the statement "I don't believe in God."

Also, it seems to me like you're conflating formal and colloquial language use: while someone might say "I don't believe in God" to communicate that they reject God (just as someone might say "strawberry isn't my favourite" to communicate an actual dislike of strawberry), this doesn't mean that we can't talk about the literal meaning of the term in a formal way.

An agnostic, someone who says of some proposition like "god exists" that they withhold belief in the truth of the proposition, are still making belief claims.
Yes: they're making a belief claim about our ability to know God. That's what agnosticism is all about.

I understand how you are defining it. It's just quite literally physically impossible. The exception is if you don't know the language.
So which is it: do you believe that Spielberg is wearing a blue shirt today or not? Apparently, having no belief on the matter is "physically impossible"; please share yours.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
I'm saying that a person can reject a concept of a deity and still be a weak atheist, like reject yahweh but still remain agnostic and open minded. Strong atheists, which I like to call gnostic atheists have determined there is no god without having to go through every single god concept.

OK, maybe I read your words too literally.

For myself, I'd as soon argue over who's an atheist as to argue over how to define a fatguy vs. a thinguy.

Is he a weak fatguy, with overtones of musclarity... or is he a strong thinguy with a tendency to pudginess?

Yo, such pressing questions we must face in life.:)

Why the passion to categorize people, most especially according to their 'beliefs' -- that's curious to me. I'm afraid I can't help getting an image in my head of Jews being separated from non-Jews in some railyard... as if such a separation is critically important somehow... as if there really are such things as Jews and atheists.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Beliefs are evaluations of propositions (or can be formulated as such). Here's a proposition: "A god or gods exist". That is a truth-bearing statement (i.e., it is either true or false but not both). Even if you say you don't know, that's a belief statement.

"It is impossible to assert something without expressing a belief."
Davis, W. A. (2003). Meaning, expression and thought. Cambridge University Press.

To say one neither believes god exists nor disbelieves is to make an assertion and, as noted above, necessarily a belief.
Excellent. :clap
 
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