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Are people born inherently atheist?

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
As far as I know, newborn infants have no capacity to hold any beliefs, so defining them by one particular non-belief is a meaningless exercise. They are atheists in the same way a rock or squirrel is. Saying infants, rocks, or squirrels are atheists provides no significant or meaningful information.

We apply the attribute of "belief/non-belief" to humans since they are capable of holding beliefs. People are erroneously extending this definition to infants, because they are human. However, they are ignoring the fact that infants lack the fundamental attribute of being able to hold beliefs. Thus, categorizing them by the attribute "belief/non-belief" isn't applicable to infants in a meaningful way.

It doesn't seem terribly difficult to understand.

However that more points out the uselessness of non-belief or non-qualfiers to begin with. I understand the idea behind "atheist" as a term and how it is useful however giving a name to a non-qualifier really seems to mess with people who are not used to something as such.

Yes, it does.
Why is that?


I don't see how.

How do you see it then? I'd like to clear up those two questions before we continue.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will only agree that atheism can be defined as implicit or explicit, before we can get into other labels such as weak and strong or even agnostic.

What is the point of labeling someone who isn't aware of the label based on beliefs they don't have about things they haven't thought about?


It doesn't when it is addressed as implicit atheism.
It does, because it rarely makes sense to define what a person's point of view is without them knowing they have it.
Long answer:
The definition of implicit atheism clears up the debate over definition
.
So does the Islamic definition: everybody is Muslim, some just don't know it. That's why you can't "convert" to Islam, you "revert" because you were Muslim to begin with.
It does not matter that all do not accept this definition, multiple definitions factually do exist.

It's true multiple definitions exist. But that doesn't mean we should promote all of them. There is a lengthy history of labels being applied to people who didn't believe these labels fit that ended badly. Personally, I have been pretty displeased when, even after explaining my position, I am told by some theist (so far, only Christians) that it doesn't matter if I say I'm an agnostic I'm an atheist anyway. But at least when believers do it, I can understand their motivation even if I don't approve. When I'm told by atheist that my agnosticism is also atheism, and despite my explanations for believing the contrary I am told I am an atheist regardless, I don't get it. There are neurophysiological (and sometimes physiological), philosophical, ideological, and cognitive differences between people who label themselves atheists because there are no gods they believe in and people who are entirely ignorant of the concept.

It's easy to define default positions. It's called ignorance. And the great thing about terms equivalent to ignorance is that we don't need one for specific things people aren't aware of.


Your getting philosophical about the definition of definition

My philosophy of definition is that while we can strive to make general definitions that most will accept based on how most people use them, they'll always be imperfect. However, this isn't akin to debating whether to defining a language as either split ergative or whether a different label (active/stative) is better. Nor is it about the ways in which individuals often use some bizarre definitions for particular words and whether we should just respect these. Defining a word like "atheism" to mean in general "anybody who isn't a theist" mean we wish that the English speaking community apply a label not just to large numbers of people who don't realize they are being labeled as such, but to a large number of people who actively deny that the label applies.

I would agree that defining theism in specific detail can be confusing, but a general definition of "belief in at least one god" does apply to most.

That's true. And I'm fine with that definition. However, I see no good reason for, and many against, defining everybody who doesn't believe in at least one god as an atheist. These range from the imminently practical (e.g., filling out forms that ask about religion) to the deeply personal. Whether we like it or not, most of cognition is categorization. For centuries and today, atheism is most associated with disbelief in gods and often with religion and general. There are a lot of people who vehemently oppose being called theists or even religious. However, many of these are very much opposed to being lumped together with those who actively disbelieve in gods. And because categorization is so basic to thought itself, trying to define atheism to cover such a distinct range of views as that of a baby, a Buddhist, a seeking agnostic, and an atheist like Dawkins under the same label will, if even mildly successful, result in misunderstanding, mischaracterization, conflict, etc. Just ask Wiccans and others who describe themselves as witches.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
See I don't see that at all as an atheist.

I hate the label for that stigma, and hate how people perceive the term atheist. Much how Neil Degrasse Tyson said he would rather be viewed as agnostic due to the negative stigma attached to the term.

The stigma is a very real problem. There are numerous studies demonstrating how people will often even unconsciously react negatively to those who identify as atheists. This doesn't generally happen in Boston, and in universities (at least in general) it's usually the opposite, but in the US there are many, many places where people consciously and/or unconsciously attribute negative traits, beliefs, behaviors, etc., to atheists simply because of the label. I rarely see it or interact with those who have, because in the social circles I generally move in (mainly academic or connected to academia) religious views are far more likely to be viewed with disdain, but cases like mine are the minority.

Apart from the obvious causes (human nature and ignorance), two main contributors to the issue are
1) fundamentalism, which is a relatively recent phenomenon but is, at least in the US, a serious issue
&
2) The "New Atheism".

If there's one thing that is going to ensure the overcoming of widespread implicit and explicit intolerance of atheists, it's atheists who act like disciples for a religion and set themselves up a exemplars for atheists everywhere when they are not. Religious groups have always reacted most vehemently against groups they see as rivals, and by creating a non-existent atheist "religion" certain self-appointed spokespersons have done nothing much to help but have helped create an imaginary enemy "church" in the mind of many religious people.

Of course, it's important for people to speak out against policies like teaching creationism as science and a host of other issues like that. And inevitably, this will cause backlash from the more fundamentalist religious groups. That doesn't mean, however, that the approach of Dawkins et al. is a good one. The few names (Harris, Dawkins, etc.) that many if not most people automatically associate with atheism are some of the least representative of atheists when it comes to views about religion. Thanks to the already present fundamentalist public figures who come from a long tradition of belief-through-scare-tactics and to a few atheists who have given these fundamentalists exemplars of an enemy out to destroy with which to paint all atheists, I have a hard time seeing any light at the end of the tunnel.
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
I was going through the list of algebras that might work either for a formal proof or, if this was too complex, one that could had an intuitive structure for a pseudo-formulation, and I started sketching out some possibilities. A central issue is that even though the study of modality (including epistemic) in linguistics started with logic and the philosophy of logic, systems were designed not to compare beliefs but to express them. That is, possible world semantics and modal logics tend to address beliefs as possibilities like "it is possible that god exists" vs. "necessarily god exists". I realized, though, that while this isn't so helpful for what I was after, it's even better.


The logics described above typically do not simply add the two modal operators ( the symbol □ indicating and ◊ possibility). They will use these in conjunction with frames, domains, relations, worlds, etc. However, what is useful is how to express certainty and possibility in such systems.

The view expressed here is that atheists neither believe nor disbelieve in god(s). Moreover, an atheist is defined entirely by not being a theist.

Presumably, if a theist is anything, a theist must believe that some concept of god has a reality or existence outside of that theist's mind.

A fairly intuitive way to extend logics to include beliefs is to think of an infinite set of world s.t. (such that) for any situation that is possible there is a world in which it is true. By possible, I refer to limits such as a world in which impossibilities can exist that impossible the way that something being both true & false at the same time is impossible. Symbolically, ~◊( A & ~ A), must be true. I do not mean that ambiguous concepts or things that seem impossible can't exist. Logical impossibilities, like "both A & ~A can be true", we can interpret precisely and thus understand the impossibility precisely.

What doxastic logics, possible world semantics, modal logics, etc., and the combinations thereof have in common is that beliefs are taken to relate to something (a truthmaker, a token, it doesn't really matter here) that is what makes the belief true or false. So, for example, a theist would say the proposition "god exists" is necessarily true: it is true in all possible worlds. That's because for any proposition, there is that relation (that truthmaker thing) which makes the proposition true in some possible world (with exception noted above). By saying god actually exists, the theist means there is no possibility that god doesn't exist, and therefore no possible world for which the proposition "god exists" is false.

I'm not saying, of course, that this means god exists. That the proposition "god exists" is true in all possible worlds is not true for every set of all possible worlds. It is simply the way that a theist would express the existence of god(s). An agnostic, on the other hand, describes the proposition "god exists" differently. The agnostic describes a different set of all possible worlds for which the proposition "god exists" is made false in some possible worlds and true in others.

Now for the interesting part. For the atheist (strong, positive, etc.) who believes god doesn't exist, we just use the opposite of what the theist expresses: it is necessarily true that for all possible worlds the proposition "god exists" is false. No problem.

But now there is nothing left. Given the proposition "god exists", we've exhausted all the ways in which the truth of this statement could be evaluated. Possible worlds are indeed designed to consist even of those things we can't conceive of, are hard to define, etc. Yet we have nothing that enables us to speak of an atheist who neither believes nor disbelieves (except in the way an agnostic does).

Nor do we escape this through other ways of extending logic to cover predicates like "believe". Belief ascriptions, for example, suffer from a similar problem here as in classical logic. For they are ways in which beliefs are described, a function or relation B with arguments B(x, p, m, t) that tell us x believes the proposition p as presented in mode m at time t (not all beliefs require the fourth argument). However, such a function is, as in classical logic, binary. There is no possible difference between "not believe A" and "believe not A". Models, worlds, frames, etc., may differ in semantics and the same even one of them, like worlds, may differ in one system compared to another. We can even go further and incorporate fuzzy logic, but even if we allow our membership function to assign a truth value to the proposition "god exists" to the unaccountably infinite set [0,1], 0 would be a certainty that god doesn't exist and anything else would represent a possibility.

Surprisingly, then, the issue at the moment isn't which system to use or how, in that system, to represent proofs that relate the definition of theists to what that entails for atheists, it is that despite the diversity of systems and the diversity of ways belief can be expressed about a diverse set (including things like "lsihler"), the only way evaluate the proposition "god exists" is truth, some form of possibly true, or false. There are literally, in this case, infinitely many "third ways" that aren't possible in classical logic, yet still not believing god exists entails believing that god does not exist or that it is possible god exists.


No, I am pretty sure that it is possible to express it, and do so in a way that still maintains mutual exclusivity. you just have to add an "or" and define theism as a lack of atheism.

So, I could say that atheism= not being capable of having a belief about God or not believing in any God, and then I would define theism = not being atheistic.

That should fulfill what they are saying including not having belief and not being a theist, while still retaining the integrity of how they define theists. However, this does little to remedy Kilgore's rocks or your resentment about the lack of distinguishing atheists from infants. This essentially assumes that babies are atheists and does little to prove such a notion, but I do not believe it can be torn down as easily with logic as other's definitions.

**edit** sorry that would actually be a person who is incapable of believing in God or a person who is not a theist.

That should take care of the rocks.
 
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ArtieE

Well-Known Member
So, defining an atheist only as not a theist, we end up with a belief claim an atheist necessarily must make of god. As I have said so often, asserting that atheism isn't theism simply means that atheism is defined by the definition of theism.
Rubbish. Having no beliefs in gods doesn't necessarily mean that you believe gods don't exist. Please learn the difference between a weak atheist and a strong atheist. A weak atheist makes no belief claims, a strong atheist does.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Sorry. I meant "A strong atheist claims to believe gods don't exist. He doesn't claim to know they don't exist. Then he would be a gnostic atheist."
To say "gods don't exist" is to say "I don't believe in gods."

We believe in things that have the appearance of truth. To disbelieve is to say things do not have the appearance of truth.

No one says, "There are no gods," who doesn't mean, "I believe there are no gods."

Except me.

Edit: I don't accept the qualifers "strong," "weak," "implicit", "explicit," "gnostic" or "agnostic" as being meaningfully different from atheism in its base sense.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
To say "gods don't exist" is to say "I don't believe in gods."

We believe in things that have the appearance of truth. To disbelieve is to say things do not have the appearance of truth.

No one says, "There are no gods," who doesn't mean, "I believe there are no gods."

Except me.

Edit: I don't accept the qualifers "strong," "weak," "implicit", "explicit," "gnostic" or "agnostic" as being meaningfully different from atheism in its base sense.
What's the point?
 
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