Are people who claim to know God liars?

[Nakosis]

Yes! That is absolutely right and is part of the concept of having no one but God over you. There's no proof God exists and no validation that you are more right. There is only that you do not belong to another person, to an institution, to a priest or to a government fop or anyone else that can be touched, seen or smelt.

BTW if I hadn't mentioned it earlier, I have the utmost respect for the Quakers. If any group were true followers of Jesus, it'd be the Quakers IMO.

 

[Brickjectivity]

BTW if I hadn't mentioned it earlier, I have the utmost respect for the Quakers. If any group were true followers of Jesus, it'd be the Quakers IMO.

I don't know everything about them. Some are more modern and some more traditional. They use the phrase 'Inner Light' to refer to that which is of God in every one, rather than typical terminology such as Logos or Holy Spirit. They also do not limit membership to only Christians or require outward conversions or rituals -- as far as I'm aware.

 

[syo]

How do you know? Did you check his ID card?

Does this apparition state his name or do folks just assume because of the spiritual nature of the vision, it was Jesus?

there is no evidence, only faith.

 

[Nakosis]

there is no evidence, only faith.

Which was kind of my point. If it is simply a matter of faith, I can have faith in whatever God or religious concept I fancy.

Where no evidence is required I can believe whatever I want. However if I claim something to be true, this implies knowledge.

Unless you feel faith requires claims of knowledge that you don't actually possess?

 

[Complexity]

It is common to talk past each other since we humans tend to use different definitions of words. Saving faith is far more than believing God exists or even following God. I doubt any human knows the depths of what God really wants from us. But Biblical baby steps appear to be: hope a good God exists, diligently & honestly search for Him, and trust in and follow a superior God-candidate if one is found. We humans only have a super-gappy, circular, bootstrapped human-level type of knowledge. I don't see how it can be any other way for a non-god. Even in heaven I might not be able to prove I have a right hand (as the philosophers quip). To have dead certain knowledge, I'd have to be on God's level or more likely rise above God (Adam's sin). I love my fellow Christians who believe God has given them absolute certainty (by evidence or revelation), but they haven't yet proven that to me. Human-level facts and certainty are strong feelings that ones mental model of reality is accurate. Feelings don't equal knowing that one accurately knows the reality outside his head. I've come to believe in Jesus by looking at the evidences for all major candidates, examining the tools & assumptions of reason, considering the critical factor of the potential importance of God, considering a vast matrix of issues and questions, testing strong possible revelation experiences I've had, debating, processing it all, and deciding.

 

[Bird123]

My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

As I see it. Deep down we all know God, since we have all been with God before. On the other hand, everybody wants to rule the world. Having God in your pocket is a good way to convince many to do your will.

Mankind is a controlling and ruling lot. I find this so deeply sewn into religion that it seems no religion really understands God at all. On the other hand, there are pieces of the truth within all religions.

God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. Diversity is a strength. What does religion do? Instead of nurturing that which is special among people, they want everyone to be exactly the same. Let's think for a moment. How would this world really be if everyone believed and acted exactly the same? Religion will say things would be better, however, in reality, it would be the most boring, messed up world and no one would really want to live in it.

In conclusion, as I see it, if anyone out there feels out of place, realize you are probably the spice that makes life interesting for all those trying to be a plain cookie cutter person. I think everyone should work at nurturing that which is Special about themselves regardless of what anyone else might protest or say.

 

[Complexity]

The root of all sin and the first sin is to lust after godhood (the power, fame, knowledge, etc). I see it in myself and in others. Some people do claim to have God in their pocket and have special powers from God. False preachers and prophets have always been around. The Bible warns us about them, from Old to New Testament.

Since God speaks to the hearts of every man, and all men have basically the same nature, no wonder there are similarities among the religions. But there are also vast differences, and core doctrinal incompatibilities. Diversity and unity are both strengths. Even in the churches I've joined, where everyone has the same core beliefs (or claims to) there are big differences. Many don't like my interest in digging deep and being open, even questioning God. Some Christians tell me to simply have faith and shut up. I clearly find the opposite in the Bible. But I also have my supporters. Iron sharpens iron. I am as bias as the next guy, and have been deeply in error in the past. There is a time to question and a time to shelf questions and commit to a faith. Atheists and Skeptics have their own set of doctrines, dogmas, and faiths.

1 Cor 12 tells about the vast diversity of the body (God's people); yet they are united into one cohesive body. This unity that is the foundation of the love chapter 1Cor 13. I can best love (and probably only love) that which I am eternally and deeply connected to.

Preachers often try hard to prevent disagreement; fearing a church split. I experienced one. Very ugly. Cut the budget in half (they sure don't like that, with good reason). Also, the weak-minded want conformity; and difficult verses can cause some to diminish or lose faith. So many preachers seem try too hard to create cookie-cutter, simple-minded, easily-led believers. I oppose that common extreme. The best churches have brave leaders and attract brave believers. If believers are so fragile, they need a painful spiritual crisis, not a protective play-pin. We were not put in this world to hide in holes, singing sappy songs to each other (exaggeration to make a point).

 

[Muffled]

In which case my point is that whatever evaluation of these experience is done is open to personal bias along with all the known faults with human perception. Even with scientific examination the conclusions can be wrong. Without it, it's a crapshoot.

IOW your guess is as good as mine. So I might as well create my own narrative vs accepting one that someone else came up with.

I believe even science is open to personal bias but that doesn't mean that everyone works that way. Certainly scientists often validate findings based upon prior knowledge but sometimes prior knowledge proves to be wrong. Christians tend to view things based upon knowledge from the Bible but so far I haven't found anything that has proven to be wrong although sometimes people will misinterpret scripture and be stuck in wrong ideas.

I believe even in a crap shoot there are odds. When multiple people have the same experience the odds become more favorable that the experience is real.

I believe that certainly is an attractive option to the ego but I have found my experience as a Christian has worked much better for me that my experience as an unsaved person.

 

[Nakosis]

I believe even science is open to personal bias but that doesn't mean that everyone works that way. Certainly scientists often validate findings based upon prior knowledge but sometimes prior knowledge proves to be wrong. Christians tend to view things based upon knowledge from the Bible but so far I haven't found anything that has proven to be wrong although sometimes people will misinterpret scripture and be stuck in wrong ideas.

I believe even in a crap shoot there are odds. When multiple people have the same experience the odds become more favorable that the experience is real.

I believe that certainly is an attractive option to the ego but I have found my experience as a Christian has worked much better for me that my experience as an unsaved person.

I can't argue against you going with what works for you. I can't expect folks to do otherwise. Just without evidence to show otherwise, the narrative which supports you/me doing what works best for us I see as flexible.

I don't see it being necessary that either of us give any credibility to each other's narrative.

 

[Complexity]

I can't argue against you going with what works for you. I can't expect folks to do otherwise. Just without evidence to show otherwise, the narrative which supports you/me doing what works best for us I see as flexible.

I don't see it being necessary that either of us give any credibility to each other's narrative.

I agree that we should be tolerant on minor issue. But we should debate how we each judge major principles of life: rather it works by criteria X, what are the other types of evidence, revelations, potential value (some say intuitions; feeling-following). Before becoming a Christian, what worked for me was anger, stealing, lust, etc. I was poor and stole small things from the wealthy, very carefully. It worked from the stand point that I never got caught and feathered my nest. Of course there are far more and far greater factors than being able to pay bills and buy a pizza for a date Saturday night. The more unity we can find in majors, for good reasons by good methods, the better off this world will be, and the closer we'll come to God.

 

[Muffled]

I can't argue against you going with what works for you. I can't expect folks to do otherwise. Just without evidence to show otherwise, the narrative which supports you/me doing what works best for us I see as flexible.

I don't see it being necessary that either of us give any credibility to each other's narrative.

I believe onemay think there is flexibility but that may just be an illusion. I don't handle rattlesnakes and that works for me and another person handles rattle snakes and it appears that it is working for them....until they get bitten.

 

[jonathan180iq]

There's a dragon in my garage.
It's invisible to you. But I assure you it's there.
It has revealed itself to me through the expression of its spirit in my life.
You cannot tell me that my dragon doesn't exist because I KNOW that it does.

Am I...:

A) Lying
B) Deluded
C) Expressing true knowledge of a hidden dragon
D) Something else

 

[Nakosis]

I believe onemay think there is flexibility but that may just be an illusion. I don't handle rattlesnakes and that works for me and another person handles rattle snakes and it appears that it is working for them....until they get bitten.

Faith is basically trusting the unknown. Whether the rattlesnake is going to bite or not is unknown.

I have to put myself in unknown situations sometimes, I just think it not to make claims about the outcome.

Is there a God? I don't know. Is there a heaven or a hell? I don't know. Will I go to heaven if I believe in Jesus? I don't know. Would it be better for me if I believed in any of a number of other Gods? I don't know.

To claim I had knowledge of any of these things I feel would be lying to myself and to others.

 

[Hawkins]

It's almost the same question as "are all the historians liars". They are all accounts of human witnessing. The difference between history and religion is that that history is the human accounts of witnessing of human deeds which are comprehendable to us, while religion is the human witnessing of God's deeds. Humans can lie about both, yet at the same time this could be the only way for humans to get to know a truth (shall there be any truth out there)!

 

[serp777]

My God is powerful enough to reveal Himself to me through His Spirit. He has done so but of course I cannot prove it scientifically.

Also, I believe He has revealed Himself in what He has made and in His Son Jesus.

You couldn't even prove it to yourself. How did you determine that aliens aren't experimenting on you and trying to make you believe a fairy tale--to see what they can get humans to believe by messing with certain neurotransmitters. Or maybe its Satan that's revealed himself to you and is tricking you.

There's now way a personal revelation would prove the truths you supposedly learned from that revelation. Its circular reason. The personal revelation is true because it came from God, and God/supernatural exists because I got a personal revelation.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Did God tell you this or is this a doctrine of your religion?

If I honestly read the Bible, I find it vague enough to find an interpretation which could support what "God" has revealed to me. Finding a way to interpret scripture to fit my experience was not much of a hindrance. Yet based on all of this, I still found it difficult to get Christians to agree much on anything about God. All of them sincere. All of them willing to show how the Bible supported their experience of God yet there is little unity among Christians when it comes to God.

In fact I used to pray for understanding of a troubling passage that Christian would argue over. The answer would be given to me which made to me all the sense in the world. Which also made most them other Christians wrong. So this accept this as truth revealed to me by God even though other Christians claimed the truth revealed to them didn't agree?

Endless arguments among Christians about scripture supporting their knowledge about God. All sincere, all true believers.

Is there any way you would share what the troubling passage was, and what the answer you had was?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

My God is powerful enough to reveal Himself to me through His Spirit. He has done so but of course I cannot prove it scientifically.

Also, I believe He has revealed Himself in what He has made and in His Son Jesus.

David,
Would you mind sharing a few of the ways God has revealed himself to you?

 

[DavidFirth]

You couldn't even prove it to yourself. How did you determine that aliens aren't experimenting on you and trying to make you believe a fairy tale--to see what they can get humans to believe by messing with certain neurotransmitters. Or maybe its Satan that's revealed himself to you and is tricking you.

There's now way a personal revelation would prove the truths you supposedly learned from that revelation. Its circular reason. The personal revelation is true because it came from God, and God/supernatural exists because I got a personal revelation.

I know the Spirit because the Spirit knows me. If you are not known you will not be known nor will you ever know.

 

[DavidFirth]

David,
Would you mind sharing a few of the ways God has revealed himself to you?

Here's a good place to start:
Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.

No one knows truth due to the intelligence of men but only by the Spirit is truth revealed. Jesus is truth.

 

[Complexity]

You couldn't even prove it to yourself. How did you determine that aliens aren't experimenting on you and trying to make you believe a fairy tale--to see what they can get humans to believe by messing with certain neurotransmitters. Or maybe its Satan that's revealed himself to you and is tricking you.

There's now way a personal revelation would prove the truths you supposedly learned from that revelation. Its circular reason. The personal revelation is true because it came from God, and God/supernatural exists because I got a personal revelation.

This is the classic problem of indistinguishability. There is no way to prove I have a right hand, or that I'm not a brain in a bottle with tubes and electrode sticking in my brain, or I'm matrix character; except with circular bootstrapped reasoning. This problem goes back to Plato (2420 years ago) and punched hard by Rene Descarte (380 years ago). The only way to get above this human environment would be to get on the level of gods. But that wouldn't be enough since one god might be a little higher and be an evil deceiver tricking all us other gods. So I'd need to be elevated to the top position of God over all, to see clearly. That is my only chance of claiming absolute confidence and certain knowledge. (Unless God has a surprise for us.) Obviously, I'll never unseat God and don't wish to. I am perfectly happy with my man-level, man-sized abilities and relative knowledge (relative to many properly basic assumption). After a billion years in heaven, if I find out that my human experience was all a joke of a super-deceiver, I'll deal with it then, with whatever power I have. Until then I will shelf this doubt, and enjoy the common sense reality we all follow as we cross a busy street. I'll follow the apparently highly orderly, seemingly dependable reality that appears to be in front of my eyes. I'll follow Jesus for a number of reasons and strong lines of evidence. If I lived deep in the Amazon and never heard of Jesus, I hope I'd hope for a good God with a great plan of afterlife. God saves those people; Rom 2:14-16. Atheists should as least honestly hope for that kind of God. And I believe that spark of hope will be rewarded with an opening of spiritual eyes to see. When I was a hard-core Atheist before 1970, that happened to me.