Are pro-gay Christians really Christian?

[mcteethinator]

I don't follow Leviticus at all...most Christians don't, if I were guessing.

Mhm. So if Christians dismiss Leviticus, couldn't some Christians dismiss the anti-gay stuff as well? it would be just as valid in my mind. As Christians are always going on about how Jesus cut them loose of Old Testament laws.

 

[HB3]

Mhm. So if Christians dismiss Leviticus, couldn't some Christians dismiss the anti-gay stuff as well? it would be just as valid in my mind. As Christians are always going on about how Jesus cut them loose of Old Testament laws.

The problem with your line of thinking is that homosexuality is mentioned as sinful three times (I believe) in writings of Paul. However if one must follow Paul's writings to be a Christian, another problem arises. In Romans 13:1-5, Paul says a Christian "must submit himself to the governing authorities." This would mean that the American Revolution was a sinful act and the founding of America was anti-Christian. I would doubt if many of the people who think homosexuality is a sin would be willing to accept this also. Faith sure can get complicated.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

It confuses me how one who is against homosexuality could be christian when Christ himself teaches you to not judge others and to love all. And I still fail to see what's so immoral about homosexuality that God would condemn such an activity. The question of WHY it's immoral consistently goes unanswered.

I love my parents, but I don't agree with everything they do. I love my friends, I don't agree with everything they do. I love everyone, except for a precious few, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with what they do.

Because Homosexual feelings are beyond one's control.

Are you talking about the feelings or the sex? Or both?

The actual ACTS of homosexuality. A dude lusting after a dude or having sexual relations with a dude is sinful. Just like me (a girl) lusting after a dude or having sexual relations outside of marriage would be sinful. Heterosexual feelings are beyond my control, but being heterosexual itself isn't a sin. it's whether and how I choose to act on those feelings or not. Same thing for a gay person. If it is indeed true they can't control homosexual feelings, they're only sinful when they act on those feelings.

Mhm. So if Christians dismiss Leviticus, couldn't some Christians dismiss the anti-gay stuff as well? it would be just as valid in my mind. As Christians are always going on about how Jesus cut them loose of Old Testament laws.

Anti-sin, not anti-gay. Get it right. Yes, we're "cut loose" from OT laws. Are you aware that there are also things in the new testament that condemn homosexuality?

 

[rojse]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember hearing that the in passages where the word homosexual is used the word wasn't even IN the bible until the 1900's and that the words that were translated into that had numerous other possible translations. And I also seem to remember hearing that the only passages that DESCRIBE homosexuality and don't use the actual word were written by Paul? and that he was very strict definition of sexual morality and thought that no sex was best and that any sex even inside of a marriage made one dirty. These are just some things I've heard so I may be wrong but I don't doubt that the bible is biased or mistranslated. Even if divinely inspired it was still written by man. even if those men who wrote the bible didn't make any mistakes can we really hold all the translators of the bible to the same level. Even if the original bible IS the word of God what assurances do we have that any of the translations can be held in the same light?

You raise a good point about the accuracy of the translation of the Bible. From the little knowledge that I have about translation, it is affected by the societal values of the culture that translates it, because there are not only different possible words that a word could be translated to, but also different emphases, phrasing, different ideals, and so forth.

If anyone has a reference to a King James version of the Bible (translated in the 17th century) it would be interesting to know whether it mentions the phrase homosexuality at all.

 

[spiritually inclined]

There are two issues here:
1) If you don't follow the Bible then you aren't Christian
2) If you follow the Bible then it is necessary to believe that homosexuality is wrong

Those who condemn others using the Bible are selectively reading the texts. No one truly believes every single word in the bible because some scriptures contradict others; thus, believing them at the same time is impossible. Simply compare the gospel accounts or google "bible contradictions." I've personally found many contradictions in the Bible, especially the New Testament.

I believe a Christian could be anyone who searches for and finds truth in the stories of Jesus' life and at least part of his alleged teachings, or the main themes, even if in their search they do not arrive at the exact truths the gospel writers were trying to communicate. I do not in the least see how that conflicts with homosexuality.

James

 

[HB3]

The actual ACTS of homosexuality. A dude lusting after a dude or having sexual relations with a dude is sinful. Just like me (a girl) lusting after a dude or having sexual relations outside of marriage would be sinful. Heterosexual feelings are beyond my control, but being heterosexual itself isn't a sin. it's whether and how I choose to act on those feelings or not. Same thing for a gay person. If it is indeed true they can't control homosexual feelings, they're only sinful when they act on those feelings.

But it is not the same thing for a "gay person." As a heterosexual you have the right to get married to someone you love and recieve the blessing of "the Church." In most states a homosexual has no right to get married and if they do, it would not be recognized by the church. So according to your line of thinking, a homosexual is not able to love another person or to express that love without commiting a sin. Where is the Christian love and justice in that.

 

[mcteethinator]

Anti-sin, not anti-gay. Get it right. Yes, we're "cut loose" from OT laws. Are you aware that there are also things in the new testament that condemn homosexuality?

Jesus encourages people to become eunichs to get to heaven. How many Christians follow that?

As that other person said, no person follows every single word of the Bible... Not being anti-homosexuality does not neccessarily make you a bad Christian anymore then not following every single obscure law in the Bible makes you a bad Christian (Maybe it does? =P).

I think homosexuality is a sin too. However I don't really care when I meet gay people. That's up to them and God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There are two issues here:
1) If you don't follow the Bible then you aren't Christian

Incorrect. Many denominations, as well as individual Christians, don't consider the Bible to be inerrant. Some consider it divinely inspired, but written by fallible humans and therefore subject to error; within this group, some believe that just as its writing was divinely inspired, so must its reading be divinely inspired if one is to grasp the true meaning.

2) If you follow the Bible then it is necessary to believe that homosexuality is wrong

Incorrect. It's only if you emphasize certain parts of the Bible and ignore other conflicting sections that it's necessary to believe that homosexuality is wrong. I'd like to see any Christian here who still believes that homosexuality is a sin to reconcile that with Romans 7, or with the line in 1 Timothy 4 that says that there will be people who forbid others to marry who "abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Also, there are several passages in the New Testament (beyond just the often-used quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone") to the effect that an individual's sins are between the individual and God alone; if you see what you think is someone else sinning, it's none of your business.

So... if you follow the Bible, it is not necessary to believe that homosexuality is wrong. It's also not needed (and actually prohibited, IMO) to place restrictions on homosexuals who do not think as you do.

 

[Smoke]

So... if you follow the Bible, it is not necessary to believe that homosexuality is wrong. It's also not needed (and actually prohibited, IMO) to place restrictions on homosexuals who do not think as you do.

Particularly when you don't place biblical restrictions on much of anything else. It's not about the Bible; it's never been about the Bible. It's about using the Bible to rationalize your bigotry.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Particularly when you don't place biblical restrictions on much of anything else. It's not about the Bible; it's never been about the Bible. It's about using the Bible to rationalize your bigotry.

Quite right.

The Bible's a big book. You can usually find a line or two in it that seems to support your position, whatever it is... this principle has been used to justify all sorts of things including outright slavery; I suppose it's foolish for me to hope that the practice might stop now.

On that note, maybe we need to brighten things up a bit: God Hates Shrimp

 

[Smoke]

On that note, maybe we need to brighten things up a bit: God Hates Shrimp

Yeah, I like that. But that's Old Testament; they can always weasel out of that one. (Although I notice they're always wanting to put the Ten Commandments on every flat surface, and not the Beatitudes.)

I'm still waiting for these same churches who don't accept queers to turn out the divorced and remarried heterosexuals, and the people who wear braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothes. That's New Testament, baby.

 

[doppelganger]

I would doubt if many of the people who think homosexuality is a sin would be willing to accept this also. Faith sure can get complicated.

Well . . . belief can get complicated. The freedom that is faith is rather quite simple.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah, I like that. But that's Old Testament; they can always weasel out of that one. (Although I notice they're always wanting to put the Ten Commandments on every flat surface, and not the Beatitudes.)

I noticed that too.

I'm still waiting for these same churches who don't accept queers to turn out the divorced and remarried heterosexuals, and the people who wear braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothes. That's New Testament, baby.

I do remember a news story earlier this year about one Baptist church that decided to apply Paul's instructions about women in church literally and fired the female Sunday School teacher. They got nothing but grief, including from the other members of the Baptist community.

 

[w00t]

I really think it is about time the Bbile was subject to a re-write, chuck out all the bigoted rubbish, and just keep the stuff that most people can agree on!

 

[spiritually inclined]

I'm so sick of the selective readings people use with the bible to justify their hatred and bigotry while ignoring all of the things they themselves like to do. I honestly do not understand how people become educated ministers, priests, bishops, and so forth, many of whom have actually learned to study the bible in a critical way by other scholarly theologians, and manage to convince themselves that the Bible is God's inerrant word. Or if they do believe it contains errors, they believe other parts of it are not subject to error. How can they quote Paul to condemn homosexuality and completely ignore the fact that he found it acceptable for Christians to own other Christian slaves???

I could not believe that anyone who has read this book would be so foolish as to proclaim that the Bible in every literal word was the divinely inspired, inerrant word of God. Have these people simply not read the text? Are they hopelessly misinformed? Is there a different Bible? Are they blinded by a combination of ego needs and naivete? [Bishop John Shelby Spong]

James

 

[Smoke]

I'm so sick of the selective readings people use with the bible to justify their hatred and bigotry while ignoring all of the things they themselves like to do. I honestly do not understand how people become educated ministers, priests, bishops, and so forth, many of whom have actually learned to study the bible in a critical way by other scholarly theologians, and manage to convince themselves that the Bible is God's inerrant word.

I don't understand how anybody can sit down and read the Bible and still believe it's God's inerrant word. What's funny is that believers are always telling me I've been deceived by worldly philosophers into believing the Bible isn't God's inerrant word, but that's not true. The way I learned that the Bible isn't inerrant was by reading the Bible. I suspect that most of those who believe the Bible is inerrant have never read the entire Bible attentively.

 

[lilithu]

There are two issues here:
1) If you don't follow the Bible then you aren't Christian
2) If you follow the Bible then it is necessary to believe that homosexuality is wrong

So, what do you think?

To be Christian is to accept Christ as Lord and to follow his example.

Some people will claim that being Christian means to follow the bible, but NO ONE follows everything in the bible. By that definition, there would be no such thing as a Christian. Besides, what is more important, the book or the Lord?? Why don't you call yourself a Biblian if you hold the book over Christ?

To be Christian is to accept Christ as Lord and to follow his example.

Jesus did not once utter anything about homosexuality. Not once. Jesus walked with those who were shunned by society and drew them into the circle of God's love. Jesus said "love thy neighbor" and "judge not lest you be judged."

I don't know whether Jesus thought that homosexuality is a sin; he didn't say one way or the other. I do know that, as we are all sinners, it doesn't matter anyway. We are still, all of us, within the circle of God's love.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Jesus did not once utter anything about homosexuality. Not once. Jesus walked with those who were shunned by society and drew them into the circle of God's love. Jesus said "love thy neighbor" and "judge not lest you be judged."

Just about two years ago, in the lead-up to same-sex marriage being legalized here, I went with my wife to her church one Sunday. The Gospel reading that day was the Beatitudes, including this passage (Matt 5:11-12):

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

After that was the Homily, which featured a guest priest who gave a particularily hate-filled speech about same-sex marriage in particular and homosexuality in general.

I think I was one of the few people present who appreciated the irony of those two things being presented together.

 

[lilithu]

I think I was one of the few people present who appreciated the irony of those two things being presented together.

:banghead3 Not banging my head because of you, 9/10s. I'm banging my head because I don't understand why more people don't see it. I don't understand.

 

[lilithu]

And (3) I know I've said this a thousand times, but any faith that is based on the Bible must, by definition, be different from the faith that produced the Bible,

Why MB, you're a man after Emerson's own heart. :angel2: This is the UU position as well.