Are Religions and Gods manmade?

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No i am not going to tell her that. If that is her belief that is her free choice to believe so.

So give me the same free choice to not believe and debate that point here.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I have no physical evidence, i have my belief in religious teaching, that is enough for me, i have no need to prove or disprove it.

When the physical evidence proves the religion wrong I have a need to tell people.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So give me the same free choice to not believe and debate that point here.

You are free to believe and discuss anything you want, the thing i have for some time trid to get you to understand is, you can not tell someone who hold a religious belief they are wrong just because you disagree with any religion.
What position are you in to k ow what religion actually teach, if you have no knowledge of the reason why the teaching was given the way it was.

How can you tell a believer they are wrong if they actually speak what the teaching tell them to do, or if a believer say " in my understanding " who are you to tell them that their own personally understanding is wrong?

If you had 40 years of daily study of multitude of religions, and really had deep understanding of each teaching, yes then people could listen to you.
But time and time again, you show you have no undeof religioues teachi g.
That has been the reason i debated with you in a seemingly negative tone toward you.
Nothing personal toward you as a person.

 

[Goddess Kit]

The thing to understand is that anything in relation to religious concepts can be considered wrong until the believer moves logically past the faith stage as evidence for what s/he believes.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

You are free to believe and discuss anything you want, the thing i have for some time trid to get you to understand is, you can not tell someone who hold a religious belief they are wrong just because you disagree with any religion.
What position are you in to k ow what religion actually teach, if you have no knowledge of the reason why the teaching was given the way it was.

How can you tell a believer they are wrong if they actually speak what the teaching tell them to do, or if a believer say " in my understanding " who are you to tell them that their own personally understanding is wrong?

If you had 40 years of daily study of multitude of religions, and really had deep understanding of each teaching, yes then people could listen to you.
But time and time again, you show you have no undeof religioues teachi g.
That has been the reason i debated with you in a seemingly negative tone toward you.
Nothing personal toward you as a person.

I only need to look at history and the news to see what religion is doing and has done.

There are passages in the holy books that allow for the evil things Man does, you seem to ignore that and the fact that Men use these passages to inflict severe hate and punishment on others.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I only need to look at history and the news to see what religion is doing and has done.

There are passages in the holy books that allow for the evil things Man does, you seem to ignore that and the fact that Men use these passages to inflict severe hate and punishment on others.

As i said many times. That is a human fault, not religious teachings fault

 

[Goddess Kit]

Yet it is via following the religious teachings to the letter that leads to that type of violence.

Any excuse can be concocted. Taking responsibility on the other hand, well.......

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yet it is via following the religious teachings to the letter that leads to that type of violence.

Any excuse can be concocted. Taking responsibility on the other hand, well.......

If the teaching say, you shall not kill. Is it the religions fault if a person who claim to follow that religion goes out and kill?

 

[Quintessence]

Not reading 44 pages, but just to point something out based on recent conversation?

If one believes religions are a somehow entirely a fabrication of humans, it logically follows that humans are also responsible for these fabrications. That is, humans are responsible for all behaviors resulting from such fabrications. Not the fabrication, humans - because humans created the fabrication (and can alter it however they please, supposedly).

 

[Brickjectivity]

Ever since Man started to leave evidence of his existence other than his bones he has left artefacts that can be inteptetated as religious.

From ancient carvings to wall paintings.

Later as we became better at creating artefacts, monuments and buildings the evidence is overwhelming. Men were creating religions and gods.

So are modern religions more creations of Man. Or did gods wait 200,000 years to reveal itself to Man?

The 'Either or' in the question seems like its designed to confine the answers in a way that pre-selects an outcome.

There are numerous other explanations. One possibility is that we both shape and are shaped by religion as our species grows. Perhaps we are growing into religion and just aren't yet perfectly aligned with it. Also gods are perhaps not responsible. That is an assumption on your part. Maybe gods are responsible, and maybe sometimes religion is an attempt to oust and to escape their influence. Maybe religion is a weapon to help us defeat the gods. Maybe the gods are not in favor of human development and want to hold us back. Maybe rather than following religion formed by gods we are growing into gods. Another explanation is that maybe the gods visit once in a while only to find that religion has receded or changed in their absence. Another option is that humans don't follow gods but aspects of reality and that its only bias which presumes to limit them to simpler themes. Humans didn't merely have rocks to carve but stars upon which to gaze. How old is astronomy? That must be older than any carving or painting. I see a lot more options.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

As i said many times. That is a human fault, not religious teachings fault

If the teaching say, you shall not kill. Is it the religions fault if a person who claim to follow that religion goes out and kill?

So if the teachings say you shall kill adulterers, apostates, blasphemers, etc. It's the religion's fault. Thank you for clearing it up.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Not reading 44 pages, but just to point something out based on recent conversation?

If one believes religions are a somehow entirely a fabrication of humans, it logically follows that humans are also responsible for these fabrications. That is, humans are responsible for all behaviors resulting from such fabrications. Not the fabrication, humans - because humans created the fabrication (and can alter it however they please, supposedly).

Exactly. The proof is in the alterations.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So if the teachings say you shall kill adulterers, apostates, blasphemers, etc. It's the religion's fault. Thank you for clearing it up.

Islam teaches to not kill. Sharia law may have some rules of punishment, but that is not religious teaching, sharia is man made law.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Islam teaches to not kill. Sharia law may have some rules of punishment, but that is not religious teaching, sharia is man made law.

So nowhere in the Quran does it say anything about punishing people for wrongdoings? Then all the killings carried out by Muslims is because they follow the wrong teachings. Thanks for clearing up this point and making it clear to everyone the religion human part of religion is at fault.

..Take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law. Thus does He command you, so that you may learn wisdom

Qur'an 6:151
​

Military career of Muhammad - Wikipedia.

He was on his way to convert the infidels with the love of his armed men.

Capital punishment in Islam - Wikipedia

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

The 'Either or' in the question seems like its designed to confine the answers in a way that pre-selects an outcome.

There are numerous other explanations. One possibility is that we both shape and are shaped by religion as our species grows. Perhaps we are growing into religion and just aren't yet perfectly aligned with it. Also gods are perhaps not responsible. That is an assumption on your part. Maybe gods are responsible, and maybe sometimes religion is an attempt to oust and to escape their influence. Maybe religion is a weapon to help us defeat the gods. Maybe the gods are not in favor of human development and want to hold us back. Maybe rather than following religion formed by gods we are growing into gods. Another explanation is that maybe the gods visit once in a while only to find that religion has receded or changed in their absence. Another option is that humans don't follow gods but aspects of reality and that its only bias which presumes to limit them to simpler themes. Humans didn't merely have rocks to carve but stars upon which to gaze. How old is astronomy? That must be older than any carving or painting. I see a lot more options.

A lot of maybes in there. I see it as men create religions to lead, get power, money, influence and hold the community together. This last one is irrelevant in modern times, society forms the rules. Something some theists fight against.

 

[CG Didymus]

How can you tell a believer they are wrong if they actually speak what the teaching tell them to do, or if a believer say " in my understanding " who are you to tell them that their own personally understanding is wrong?

But that's what most religions do, and even the sects within a religion. It makes them all look bad. Who's right Sunni's or Shi'as? Who's right Catholics or Protestants. Within Protestants... who's right the Pentecostals, Calvinists, Baptists or Catholics. Then we have the Baha'is. They have told me several times that all these religious groups are wrong on something. They continually say that the original message was true but the people added things in and misinterpreted other things to come up with their doctrinal beliefs.

One of the main ones that Islam and the Baha'i Faith say is wrong about one Christian doctrine is the one where Christians say God is a trinity. Baha'i then say the creation story is not literal true as some Christians believe. Baha'is say the Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. Something that goes against what Jews and Christians believe is true. Baha'is say that Jesus did not come back to life physically, that his body died and only his spirit rose. They also say that Satan and demons are not real. To Hindus they say reincarnation is not real.

That's what religions do. They each have there beliefs, and most, including Baha'is, say that there's are the better and truer ones. And they do tell believers that they are wrong and that those believers have misinterpreted their own Scriptures when they believe in something that contradicts Baha'i teachings. Now Baha'i could be right... or they might be wrong. But we got to take a good look at what each religion is saying and why they believe those things.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But that's what most religions do, and even the sects within a religion. It makes them all look bad. Who's right Sunni's or Shi'as? Who's right Catholics or Protestants. Within Protestants... who's right the Pentecostals, Calvinists, Baptists or Catholics. Then we have the Baha'is. They have told me several times that all these religious groups are wrong on something. They continually say that the original message was true but the people added things in and misinterpreted other things to come up with their doctrinal beliefs.

One of the main ones that Islam and the Baha'i Faith say is wrong about one Christian doctrine is the one where Christians say God is a trinity. Baha'i then say the creation story is not literal true as some Christians believe. Baha'is say the Ishmael, not Isaac, was taken to be sacrificed. Something that goes against what Jews and Christians believe is true. Baha'is say that Jesus did not come back to life physically, that his body died and only his spirit rose. They also say that Satan and demons are not real. To Hindus they say reincarnation is not real.

That's what religions do. They each have there beliefs, and most, including Baha'is, say that there's are the better and truer ones. And they do tell believers that they are wrong and that those believers have misinterpreted their own Scriptures when they believe in something that contradicts Baha'i teachings. Now Baha'i could be right... or they might be wrong. But we got to take a good look at what each religion is saying and why they believe those things.

I do no longer tell what i think other religions should or should not do, or believe in, my concern is about my own practice and learning and understanding all i have to in Islam.

If you want to critique Islam or other religions go ahead i have nothing to reply about it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yet it is via following the religious teachings to the letter that leads to that type of violence.

Any excuse can be concocted. Taking responsibility on the other hand, well.......

If the teaching say, you shall not kill. Is it the religions fault if a person who claim to follow that religion goes out and kill?

Zech 13:1“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

2“On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.

Numbers 25::1While Israel was staying in ****tim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the Lord’s anger burned against them.

4The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the Lord’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.”

5So Moses said to Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death those of your people who have yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor.”

6Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped;
​

I got to go along with Goddess Kit, lots of violence and lots of killing. But some religious people justify it, because God ordered it. Oh, and did all this killing keep the people from ever doing "evil" in the sight of the Lord? No. So, for me, either God's methods are flawed or these stories about God ordering the killing are manmade.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Zech 13:1“On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

2“On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. “I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.

Numbers 25::1While Israel was staying in ****tim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate the sacrificial meal and bowed down before these gods. 3So Israel yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor. And the Lord’s anger burned against them.

4The Lord said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the Lord’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.”

5So Moses said to Israel’s judges, “Each of you must put to death those of your people who have yoked themselves to the Baal of Peor.”

6Then an Israelite man brought into the camp a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 7When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear into both of them, right through the Israelite man and into the woman’s stomach. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped;
​

I got to go along with Goddess Kit, lots of violence and lots of killing. But some religious people justify it, because God ordered it. Oh, and did all this killing keep the people from ever doing "evil" in the sight of the Lord? No. So, for me, either God's methods are flawed or these stories about God ordering the killing are manmade.

I do not justify killing because it is not correct way to live a spiritual life, i see terror just as evil and bad as anybody else.

 

[CG Didymus]

A lot of maybes in there. I see it as men create religions to lead, get power, money, influence and hold the community together. This last one is irrelevant in modern times, society forms the rules. Something some theists fight against.

So we have some small tribe somewhere in the Amazon jungle or even a great empire like the Aztecs. Who's going to say that The God spoke to these people and gave them those religions with things like human and animal sacrificing and shamanism and lots of Gods. Not too many. So then comes the Europeans. Some of them were Catholic Christians. They killed and conquered, outlawed the native religions and forced them to become Catholics. How much different are these new beliefs? A dying and raising God/man and a spirit world filled with demons and a devil.

So now lots of people are saying that we should get rid of all those manmade myths about Gods and demons. Who would argue with that? Even some religious people wouldn't argue with that. They say that those beliefs are false. And then move ahead and say that the "real" truth is what their religion teaches. So all people do is dump one myth for another one. And always... the new "myth" is not really a myth... it is the truth. Yeah right.

The effect is still the same. Religion brings a bunch of rules and moral codes and says that they came from a God, therefore they must be obeyed. If not, then God justifies them to enforce those laws on people. And even in the Baha'i Faith there is capital punishment. "Arson: The punishment for arson is either the death penalty or life imprisonment. If the death penalty is applied, the convicted person is killed by burning." Why would there be arson and murders in a society of a new race of men? And, since Baha'is have told me time and time again that the Baha'i laws only apply to Baha'is, then these are Baha'is that have committed arson and murder?