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Are Satanists Important to Your Understanding of Satan?

Orias

Left Hand Path
The OP is simple enough, for those who see Satan as a life teaching entity, are Satanists important in your understanding of Satan?

If not, why?

If so, how many Satanists do you actually know?

And to follow up, how many of the self proclaimed Satanists do you see as actually see as being Satanic (besides me :D)?
 
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Tarheeler

Argumentative Curmudgeon
Premium Member
Could you explain why satanists might be important to someone else's understanding of satan?

I don't see why it would be relevant in any way.
 

Shuddhasattva

Well-Known Member
Yes.

My concept of Satan is entirely dictated by what other people believe about Satan. Why? Because I do not use the name or form of Satan in my own practice. Some people describe Satan as how I understand Bhairava. Others (say, Christians) describe Satan as how I understand Avidya.

In the former case, I would consider worship of Satan good. In the latter, not good.
 

Sethen

Black Magician
Other Satanists affect my understanding of Satan in that they present a challenge. Satanism and my way of thinking in general is about conquering all challenges so that I will grow and become a more powerful "Satan".
The more intelligent and stronger Satanists affect my understanding because they motivate me to become stronger. You get alot of *********** out out there and will do anything to destroy you intellectually or otherwise - bumping into these individuals certainly remind me that there will always be someone stronger around the corner and so this keeps it spinning for me and motivates me to renew myself(Satan) and my understanding of myself. It`s good to be ready.
The opposer works in two ways for me - subjectively and objectively. It`s like this; you can learn the easy way or the hard way. You can either think before you act and embrace your Satanic wisdom or you can learn from the opposer when he`s opposing you.
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
The OP is simple enough, for those who see Satan as a life teaching entity, are Satanists important in your understanding of Satan?

If not, why?

If so, how many Satanists do you actually know?

And to follow up, how many of the self proclaimed Satanists do you see as actually see as being Satanic (besides me :D)?
No, because Satanists are as indecisive about their collective view of Satan as the rest of the population is.

Most self-proclaimed Satanists (on this board) are rather Satanic. The ones I know in person are just kids rebelling against their parental systems by finding a new father figure.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
The OP is simple enough, for those who see Satan as a life teaching entity, are Satanists important in your understanding of Satan?

If not, why?

If so, how many Satanists do you actually know?

And to follow up, how many of the self proclaimed Satanists do you see as actually see as being Satanic (besides me :D)?

Myself and Mindmaster come to mind the fastest. Might be others, but they are not here as much or are too new for me to see them as "Satanic" yet, however I consider all of life to be Satanic and only some beings as being born as Satanists.

No, because Satanists are as indecisive about their collective view of Satan as the rest of the population is.

Most self-proclaimed Satanists (on this board) are rather Satanic. The ones I know in person are just kids rebelling against their parental systems by finding a new father figure.

True..

As for the kids in your area, lol.

Do you consider me Satanic, even if a bit' crazy? :D
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I think that historical Satanism as it appears in literature can give very interesting insights into undermining Christian civilization by embracing the sensual and independent reality that Christian dogma represses.
Some literary or even cinematic forms of Satanism are truly dark and morbid, others are an interesting quest for self empowerment. But the typical modern Satanist, who listens to black metal and prolongs shock value that most people grew out of when they were 21 is a caricature of what true Satanism, the kind that none of us would ever hear about or be exposed to would be like (and I realize I am being simplistic in this example).

I think the analysis is simple. What are the major elements in modern Satanism? Most Satanists we encounter, on the web or in real life, for the most part are Satanists by virtue of popular culture. They began by inspiration of music or other themes in popular culture, they largely have superficial knowledge of historical occult, late medieval occult literature, or ancient religions. In a way modern Satanism is like a reconstructionist neopagan belief system, a Biblical antagonist, or other ancient antagonist (Set, or even Ahriman) is taken and serves as the personification of a superficial unrestrained alternative to mainstream (usually Christian orientated) society.

If true Satanists exist. I always envisioned them as having a tasteful appreciation of classical music, shrewd understanding of history and the powers at play, minimalist taste in art as opposed to 'evil' Satanic imagery of skulls and demons.
So Satanists may be out there. But I think they are preoccupied with more refined interests.

None of this, however, means that various people who may adhere to a 'dark' path, Satanism, the Temple of Set, etc. are not serious in their world view, or the way they choose to live their life. They just never strike me as individuals who truly embraced the essence of a higher culture of 'Satanism', or as people who achieved an impressive level of independence and power.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
I think that historical Satanism as it appears in literature can give very interesting insights into undermining Christian civilization by embracing the sensual and independent reality that Christian dogma represses.
Some literary or even cinematic forms of Satanism are truly dark and morbid, others are an interesting quest for self empowerment. But the typical modern Satanist, who listens to black metal and prolongs shock value that most people grew out of when they were 21 is a caricature of what true Satanism, the kind that none of us would ever hear about or be exposed to would be like (and I realize I am being simplistic in this example).

I think the analysis is simple. What are the major elements in modern Satanism? Most Satanists we encounter, on the web or in real life, for the most part are Satanists by virtue of popular culture. They began by inspiration of music or other themes in popular culture, they largely have superficial knowledge of historical occult, late medieval occult literature, or ancient religions. In a way modern Satanism is like a reconstructionist neopagan belief system, a Biblical antagonist, or other ancient antagonist (Set, or even Ahriman) is taken and serves as the personification of a superficial unrestrained alternative to mainstream (usually Christian orientated) society.

If true Satanists exist. I always envisioned them as having a tasteful appreciation of classical music, shrewd understanding of history and the powers at play, minimalist taste in art as opposed to 'evil' Satanic imagery of skulls and demons.
So Satanists may be out there. But I think they are preoccupied with more refined interests.

None of this, however, means that various people who may adhere to a 'dark' path, Satanism, the Temple of Set, etc. are not serious in their world view, or the way they choose to live their life. They just never strike me as individuals who truly embraced the essence of a higher culture of 'Satanism', or as people who achieved an impressive level of independence and power.

The majority of Satanists I have met are legit. Also we don't conform to your idea of what our tastes should be. There are many legit satanists that like black metal, and legit satanic bands that are in metal.

Your subjective idea of what Satanism should be is meaningless because you are not a Satanist, and you seem to be implying that many that call themselves Satanists are not for not havintg these refined tastes.

However it is true that many think they have independence and power, but have none. there are the fakers, but by far and large I have mostly found that the satanists i run into are legit, not run into the black metal teenagers yet tho
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
No need to take it personally Jason. The OP asked several straightforward questions. And I answered, and will expand a bit more about one of the points. I don't find the vast majority of what people call Satanism to be intellectually enlightening about 'Satan'. Much of it is based on the assumption that there is a liberated and better intellectual experience than Christianity. Well, I am not a Christian. I don't believe the Satan of 'Satanists' represents the kind of alternative and intellectuality which is a true alternative to the Anglo, patriarchal, post colonial world. Like I said. In many ways that Satan is a caricature and is painted in a very simplistic fashion.
I personally can learn more about Set, Ahriman, or the Biblical Satan in an academic school of ancient history than I can from people who define themselves as Satanists. Which lets face it, they themselves took someone else's version of Satan and now carry it as their banner in their crusade.

Perhaps if some of the Satanists here can draw some general points about Satan that they feel they can educate others about we can have a more interesting discussion. What can they offer which is not rooted in popular culture? what body of information to they draw from on this subject?
In that I mean, which understanding (to quote the OP), which is truly educational, or enlightening can you as a Satanist tell me about Satan?
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
Which lets face it, they themselves took someone else's version of Satan and now carry it as their banner in their crusade.

Perhaps if some of the Satanists here can draw some general points about Satan that they feel they can educate others about we can have a more interesting discussion. What can they offer which is not rooted in popular culture? what body of information to they draw from on this subject?
In that I mean, which understanding (to quote the OP), which is truly educational, or enlightening can you as a Satanist tell me about Satan?

Oh my god I don't even know where to begin... Satanism is not rooted in popular culture. Satan means accuser or oppositon, so to be a Satanist is to follow a god that fits this title. I use Satan as a tester and accuser archtype for my godv who tests me (I feel this is more true the actual jewish meaning), however he isn't very christian in most senses, maybe as being of the flesh, but then again that just means being the image life is made in, not anythign about sin.

edit: wht i meant by beginnging was getting thorugh what i habe a problem with in your psots, not tellign you about satan sorry busy ill make a new post in a sec
 
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Kerr

Well-Known Member
The OP is simple enough, for those who see Satan as a life teaching entity, are Satanists important in your understanding of Satan?

If not, why?

If so, how many Satanists do you actually know?

And to follow up, how many of the self proclaimed Satanists do you see as actually see as being Satanic (besides me :D)?
I believe its important to my understanding of your view on Satan :p. Its not important to my understanding, though, since I believe there is no "one true view" when it comes to religious matters. As I view it, its all personal and individual.
 

jasonwill2

Well-Known Member
Okay, this is the problem I have with your two posts.

First, you attriubte "most" of Satanists to those teenage-punk dabblers and say that most "modern Satanists" are essentially them, however if theyt are using the term "Modern" they are probably at least familiar with LaVey's work or symbolic Satanism in general.

However my experience has been that most Satanists I have come across are theists and serious about it. I havn't ever talked to any dabblers or what you describe. However I have met a few Joy of Satan people who are pretty hateful in general. Most of hte LaVeyans I have met are jerks, trolls, or dogmatic. But despite that most of my dealings with other Satanists has been of genuine persuit of an entity called Satan.

The kind of Satanism you are describing, from what I can tell, is based on 19th century literature that started portraying Satan in a sympathetic or almost positive light;

(Diane Vera had a page on this but I can't find it, only this)

Symbolic Satanism actually has a long history. The word "Satanism" has been used by literary critics since the 1800's to refer to literature containing favorable portrayals of Satan; there was apparently quite a flurry of such literature in the Romantic era of the early 1800's.

source: FAQ about theistic ("traditional") Satanism in general

But for you to say that that Satanism based on that is the "True Satanism" says that you don't think others are Satanists. a "True Satanist" is a buzz word in the underground for "Only my take is Satanism and your all fakes", and is used mostly with fights or all the pointless arguments. But when you say "your not Satanists because you don't fit my idea of what Satanists should be" is just offensive to me, especially it's uneeded when your not even a Satanist.

Should I go around and say who the true christians are? No! I can't decide who identifies as a Christian, and shouldn't even try. Same as I find it offensive that non-Satanists can decide who are Satanists and who are not.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
As with any other religion, I like to separate what is true about Satanism from what is "Hollywood", or sensationalism, misconceptions, etc. In order to do that, I would need to ask a member of the religion. So, in a way, yes- but I have my own conceptions about Satan himself- which include that the biblical Satan may have been symbolic. It's an ongoing thing.
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Satan as portrayed in the Abrahamic religion is a hero. He sacrifices everything to bring humanity knowledge and freedom knowing that in the end he will lose. Jesus (as God) set himself up for a sure win because the game was created by him in the first place, objectively he is a monster.

Not to say that I believe in Satan as anything more than an archetypal mythological figure, but it is fun to point out the irrational double standard of Christians who worship a monster God for power and immortality.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
No need to take it personally Jason. The OP asked several straightforward questions. And I answered, and will expand a bit more about one of the points. I don't find the vast majority of what people call Satanism to be intellectually enlightening about 'Satan'. Much of it is based on the assumption that there is a liberated and better intellectual experience than Christianity. Well, I am not a Christian. I don't believe the Satan of 'Satanists' represents the kind of alternative and intellectuality which is a true alternative to the Anglo, patriarchal, post colonial world. Like I said. In many ways that Satan is a caricature and is painted in a very simplistic fashion.
I personally can learn more about Set, Ahriman, or the Biblical Satan in an academic school of ancient history than I can from people who define themselves as Satanists. Which lets face it, they themselves took someone else's version of Satan and now carry it as their banner in their crusade.

Perhaps if some of the Satanists here can draw some general points about Satan that they feel they can educate others about we can have a more interesting discussion. What can they offer which is not rooted in popular culture? what body of information to they draw from on this subject?
In that I mean, which understanding (to quote the OP), which is truly educational, or enlightening can you as a Satanist tell me about Satan?

I agree with most of this. Concerning what the Satanists on this board have to offer, it can all be observed in the LHP DIR. And honestly in my opinion it is all very educational and civil, regardless of whether or not a consensus can actually be reached on the matter pertaining to definition of the said being.

As far as being able to educate yourself and learn more from an academic standpoint about Satanism, its only partially true. This can be observed in the light that an electrician won't teach you how to do a plumbers job (I've brought this example up in other threads). Just like you can't expect an atheist to thoroughly understand and be able to explain a theistic POV. This is because theists are as unique and as intelligent as all atheists, and vice versa. And their standpoint and label is just, vital to them and their understanding of "why" they chose to implore and invoke such labels upon them.

Even if the metaphorical electrician once was a plumber, he will teach you what he currently professes in, academically. Though regardless, an informal standpoint can also be very enlightening, but if you go to an electrician to learn a plumbers job, chances are it wouldn't be as critiqued or as efficient as if he were teaching you what he choses to profess in.
 
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Orias

Left Hand Path
Another example would be like, as a martial artist, I've studied different forms of oriental martial arts, including various forms of Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, and Judo.

I was raised with Tae Kwon Do, more specifically Ji Do Kwan (olympic style), versus Mudokwan which is less traditional and practical. Over the years I've learned different styles of Karate as well, such as kyokushin kata and shotokan kata. I've also learned a combination of the three, such as Hapkido which is Tae Kwon Do influenced judo, Chinese Boxing, and Kyokugen.

BUT, I did Ji Do Kwan for fourteen years, and thats what I would teach if someone wanted me to teach them self defense. I could teach them the other various forms, and even some hybrid technique, but I'm a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, therefore it would make most sense that I teach Tae Kwon Do and not Karate or any of the others, though I am aware of the difference in technique and usage, its not something I would prefer nor recommend.
 
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