Are secular societies prone to moral decay?

[Demonslayer]

Absolutely wrong.
Just compare the most religious places in the world to the most secular. You don't have to be genius to see the pattern.

This.

 

[blue taylor]

I think the proof is in the pudding here, before Christianity the most advanced civilizations considered watching people die horribly the height of sophisticated entertainment. Less wealthy cultures ate each other.
They did not perceive this as immoral

I think we take for granted how Christianity transformed what we perceive as 'normal morality' in the world

I seem to remember a thing call the inquisition. Christians were master torturers then. Then there is the witch trials and murders of innocent people accused of being witches. It took christianity 1800 years before it decided it would act like a moral religion. If christianity had followed the teachings of Jesus, these things would never had happenend.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I seem to remember a thing call the inquisition. Christians were master torturers then. Then there is the witch trials and murders of innocent people accused of being witches. It took christianity 1800 years before it decided it would act like a moral religion. If christianity had followed the teachings of Jesus, these things would never had happenend.

I here that cited a lot, a group of Catholics who over the course of many hundreds of years, killed a few hundred people.. apparently reflects on the entirety of Christianity. While Stalin, Mao, Hitler, the largest socialist regimes that ever existed- killed countless millions in a recent single generation, yet these are mere cherry picking anomalies that shouldn't give socialism a bad name!

witch hunting also is often misappropriated:

(wiki)
While belief in and persecution of witches were widespread in pre-Christian Europe, and reflected in Germanic law, the influence of the Church in the early medieval era resulted in the revocation of these laws in many places, bringing an end to traditional pagan witch hunts.[24] Throughout the medieval era mainstream Christian teaching had denied the existence of witches and witchcraft, condemning it as pagan superstition.[25]

We certainly agree on the teachings of Jesus, and to my original point; they have had such an incredibly far reaching influence on society and morals, that they are taken largely for granted today.

Without him, we have no particular reason to suspect we wouldn't be packing stadiums to witness slaughters of innocent people, and having the neighbors over for dinner might mean something else entirely!

 

[blue taylor]

I here that cited a lot, a group of Catholics who over the course of many hundreds of years, killed a few hundred people.. apparently reflects on the entirety of Christianity. While Stalin, Mao, Hitler, the largest socialist regimes that ever existed- killed countless millions in a recent single generation, yet these are mere cherry picking anomalies that shouldn't give socialism a bad name!

witch hunting also is often misappropriated:

(wiki)
While belief in and persecution of witches were widespread in pre-Christian Europe, and reflected in Germanic law, the influence of the Church in the early medieval era resulted in the revocation of these laws in many places, bringing an end to traditional pagan witch hunts.[24] Throughout the medieval era mainstream Christian teaching had denied the existence of witches and witchcraft, condemning it as pagan superstition.[25]

We certainly agree on the teachings of Jesus, and to my original point; they have had such an incredibly far reaching influence on society and morals, that they are taken largely for granted today.

Without him, we have no particular reason to suspect we wouldn't be packing stadiums to witness slaughters of innocent people, and having the neighbors over for dinner might mean something else entirely!

I could have mentioned the crusades. Hitler stated that he would be Catholic till he died. And your right, we don't slaughter innocent people in stadiums anymore, we just let them beat on each other for years until their brains fry.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I could have mentioned the crusades. Hitler stated that he would be Catholic till he died. And your right, we don't slaughter innocent people in stadiums anymore, we just let them beat on each other for years until their brains fry.

well boxing is like a ballet, only there is no music and the dancers hit each other!

 

[habiru]

I seem to remember a thing call the inquisition. Christians were master torturers then. Then there is the witch trials and murders of innocent people accused of being witches. It took christianity 1800 years before it decided it would act like a moral religion. If christianity had followed the teachings of Jesus, these things would never had happenend.

It says to be aware of the yeast of the Pharisees. The pharisees were going around making judgement on others claiming to be doing it in the name of God. And so I believes that is the yeast that has been spreading through generations that Jesus has warned us about.. And it also says to be aware of wolves wearing sheep's clothing, which means that they will be infiltrating the churches as being a child of God, but are not. And so the church's leaders of the past were not true Catholics at all. And so you cannot say that this is how Catholics are.

 

[freethinker44]

I here that cited a lot, a group of Catholics who over the course of many hundreds of years, killed a few hundred people.. apparently reflects on the entirety of Christianity. While Stalin, Mao, Hitler, the largest socialist regimes that ever existed- killed countless millions in a recent single generation, yet these are mere cherry picking anomalies that shouldn't give socialism a bad name!

witch hunting also is often misappropriated:

(wiki)
While belief in and persecution of witches were widespread in pre-Christian Europe, and reflected in Germanic law, the influence of the Church in the early medieval era resulted in the revocation of these laws in many places, bringing an end to traditional pagan witch hunts.[24] Throughout the medieval era mainstream Christian teaching had denied the existence of witches and witchcraft, condemning it as pagan superstition.[25]

We certainly agree on the teachings of Jesus, and to my original point; they have had such an incredibly far reaching influence on society and morals, that they are taken largely for granted today.

Without him, we have no particular reason to suspect we wouldn't be packing stadiums to witness slaughters of innocent people, and having the neighbors over for dinner might mean something else entirely!

Yeah, the European witch hunts didn't end until the 18th century, well after pre-Christian Europe.
It doesn't matter though because all this just supports the argument that as a culture becomes less religious it becomes more ethical.
The transition from pagan religions to Christianity is arguably a transition to a less religious culture.

 

[Agondonter]

Yeah, the European witch hunts didn't end until the 18th century, well after pre-Christian Europe.
It doesn't matter though because all this just supports the argument that as a culture becomes less religious it becomes more ethical.
The transition from pagan religions to Christianity is arguably a transition to a less religious culture.

That is a value-judgment. On what basis is it made? Religious or secular?

The problem with "free thinking" is that it's too superficial to be taken seriously.

 

[Deathbydefault]

I can't even understand the argument in terms of modern times. Christian morality seems to be largely outdated already, with all the anti-gay nonsense, the fight against legal abortion, the fight against contraception including things like the Pope discouraging condoms in AIDS torn Africa. I mean we have Christian pastors saying the US government should put gay people to death based on Biblical morality, and we have Christians standing on street corners with horrible hate-filled signs about homosexual people.

This is the pinnacle of modern morality?

Yes, you are very correct, but my point was that it's not as bad as it used to be.
A gay person would have just been killed, not protested.
Planned parenthood would have earned you lashes.
Woman would be raised to believe rape is something that 'just happens'.

It evolved from that position into the many modern denominations we have today.
What it used to be is much worse, we would have been tortured to death or burned alive ourselves, in an old Christian theologian.

 

[freethinker44]

That is a value-judgment. On what basis is it made? Religious or secular?

This question doesn't make any sense. I'm comparing religious and secular on a spectrum from most religious to least religious. It doesn't make any sense to separate them

The problem with "free thinking" is that it's too superficial to be taken seriously.

Whatever helps you rationalize your situation, sure.

 

[Agondonter]

This question doesn't make any sense. I'm comparing religious and secular on a spectrum from most religious to least religious. It doesn't make any sense to separate them

What is the basis of your value judgment? Is it religious or secular? It's a simple question. If you haven't thought about it, then you haven't thought about it.

 

[freethinker44]

What is the basis of your value judgment? Is it religious or secular? It's a simple question. If you haven't thought about it, then you haven't thought about it.

Again, this doesn't make sense. Religious and secular is the scale, the value is ethics and morality.

 

[Agondonter]

Again, this doesn't make sense. Religious and secular is the scale, the value is ethics and morality.

I was trying to evoke some kind of context from you. Without it, especially an historical one, your "comparison" is a non-response to the OP, a meaningless string of words.

 

[sayak83]

I prefer the original candid direct accounts, logs, historical records from the time, from explorers, scientists (including Darwin) who had nothing to gain from painting new discovered lands as dangerous, unfriendly, resistant to good trade relations and further exploration, quite the opposite in fact.

... over modern day revisionist fashionable academic interpretations..

The fanciful idea of the 'noble savage' being corrupted by the 'evil European' is nothing new, it was very fashionable during the era of exploration also, among those who had never been to sea, some people of this persuasion signed up on expeditions as botanists etc, and their academic opinions were soon overturned by harsh reality.

It was not just cannibalism but also endemic theft that hampered relations, trade, kept cultures isolated from the outside world

Later many missionaries risked their lives and died introducing not just Christianity, morals, but farming & building techniques, literacy, health, education etc which vastly improved standards of living for many cultures

That's your preference. I certainly believe that recent archaeology and anthropological data paints a far truer picture of their world before the Europeans destroyed them with utter ruthless cruelty. They were neither noble, nor savage..but highly sophisticated and complex cultures and communities in their own right who were annihilated by exploitation, disease and rapacious conquest of European sea-faring armies. All you show by trusting the annals of the early Europeans is the same extreme prejudice that they showed and caused the greatest man-made disaster that has ever occurred in history when hundreds and hundreds of big and small civilizations, cultures, languages, arts and human ways of living disappeared without a trace. The missionaries are as much a part and as completely implicated in this as everyone else.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think the proof is in the pudding here, before Christianity the most advanced civilizations considered watching people die horribly the height of sophisticated entertainment. Less wealthy cultures ate each other.
They did not perceive this as immoral

I think we take for granted how Christianity transformed what we perceive as 'normal morality' in the world

Because post Chrisrian societies never watched people horribly killed for entertainment?
Unless of course you count all the public executions which were a family day out right up until at least the earlyish 1900s in the vast majority of Western nations.
Oh and not forgetting that gawking at the residents in Bedlam was a form of sophisticated entertainment in the still Christian influenced society of England during like the Georgian era.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

While I wouldn't say secular cultures are inherently more moral than a religious culture. Considering the parts that make up the whole, even secular America has many dire areas where morality needs to improve (such as our treatment of the environment, sustainability, and the economic exploitation of other nations). As a moral nihilist, I first ask what is it that I consider to be moral and immoral. When I apply these standards to varying societies, but to keep it simple and use more modern examples, religious societies tend to be more restrictive whereas secular societies tend to be more careless. It's wrong to expect a woman to completely cover her self up just in the name of religious modesty, but it's also wrong to consume so much that resource depletion and wasted space (such as American burial customs) is becoming more of an issue. To me, any society, religious or secular, is prone to moral decay and is immoral if it places any unnecessary restrictions (such as not allowing homosexuals to wed) and if it doesn't live in balance with nature (something we all--including future generations--need in order to live), and if it fails to give due respect to its own citizens and the sovereignty of other states, and if it fails to meet the basic needs of its citizens when the means are available.

I think the proof is in the pudding here, before Christianity the most advanced civilizations considered watching people die horribly the height of sophisticated entertainment.

Even in the heavily Christianized Europe executions were a public spectacle, sometimes even savage and gruesome.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

That's your preference. I certainly believe that recent archaeology and anthropological data paints a far truer picture of their world before the Europeans destroyed them with utter ruthless cruelty. They were neither noble, nor savage..but highly sophisticated and complex cultures and communities in their own right who were annihilated by exploitation, disease and rapacious conquest of European sea-faring armies. All you show by trusting the annals of the early Europeans is the same extreme prejudice that they showed and caused the greatest man-made disaster that has ever occurred in history when hundreds and hundreds of big and small civilizations, cultures, languages, arts and human ways of living disappeared without a trace. The missionaries are as much a part and as completely implicated in this as everyone else.

Contrary to modern day Disney depictions, primitive tribes did not occupy their time choreographing cute song and dance routines! they were often entire tribes of warriors, at constant ruthless war with each other for 100's of years, which included routine cannibalism and human sacrifice in many cases. Again this reality was not a vast conspiracy theory or in any way advantageous to explorers in attracting interest in settling colonies or trading relations

Sometimes after being met with default violence from native inhabitants, some level of peace, trust, trade was established with a chief, only to return a few years later and be met with aggression again because they had been replaced by fresh enemies.

Not to say Europeans were angels, there is no good guy/ bad guy here, just a vastly more advanced culture meeting and ultimately lifting, enlightening primitive ones

consider that western colonies in the US, Canada, Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc- became the most conspicuously successful places in the world, while those like Papua New Guinea, remained in the stone age. That may seem terribly romantic to us, a fascinating living history to be preserved like a zoo exhibit, but it's not so great a life for the people themselves is it?

 

[sayak83]

Contrary to modern day Disney depictions, primitive tribes did not occupy their time choreographing cute song and dance routines! they were often entire tribes of warriors, at constant ruthless war with each other for 100's of years, which included routine cannibalism and human sacrifice in many cases. Again this reality was not a vast conspiracy theory or in any way advantageous to explorers in attracting interest in settling colonies or trading relations

Sometimes after being met with default violence from native inhabitants, some level of peace, trust, trade was established with a chief, only to return a few years later and be met with aggression again because they had been replaced by fresh enemies.

Not to say Europeans were angels, there is no good guy/ bad guy here, just a vastly more advanced culture meeting and ultimately lifting, enlightening primitive ones

consider that western colonies in the US, Canada, Australia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc- became the most conspicuously successful places in the world, while those like Papua New Guinea, remained in the stone age. That may seem terribly romantic to us, a fascinating living history to be preserved like a zoo exhibit, but it's not so great a life for the people themselves is it?

Contrary to colonial mindset there were no primitive tribes. The idea that they were savages were built up to justify the kind of ruthless exploitation they were made subject to. The colonies were built by displacement and extermination of these so called primitive tribes who had so inconveniently been living on such good land that the Europeans coveted. There is no conspiracy here. Travelling the oceans were costly, and plundering and pillage was just good business.
https://books.google.com/books?id=VhVcCv1C6N0C&source=gbs_navlinks_s

 

[Demonslayer]

Yes, you are very correct, but my point was that it's not as bad as it used to be.
A gay person would have just been killed, not protested.
Planned parenthood would have earned you lashes.
Woman would be raised to believe rape is something that 'just happens'.

It evolved from that position into the many modern denominations we have today.
What it used to be is much worse, we would have been tortured to death or burned alive ourselves, in an old Christian theologian.

Yes I agree with your points here for sure. Which seems to display that the further away from a religious society you get, the more moral, not less as some are proposing.

 

[Shad]

I'm not sure myself. I ask because I read a couple of articles lately written by Christians. They were trying to make the case that secularism believes morality is relative and without the never changing "Word of God", morality is subject to the whims of the people. Eventually, this secular society will morally decay.

Right? Wrong?

One only needs to look at history to see how Christian morality has evolved and changed. What was allowed then and what is allowed now. These "Christians" and their argument have no merit. Their own systems have decayed a number of times then progressed due to social, economic and political influences.