Are secular societies prone to moral decay?

[Ingledsva]

I certainly do believe a society without correct religious guidance is open to moral decay and we have examples of that all around the world.

And we very obviously also have religious societies in moral decay.

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[Tomorrows_Child]

And we very obviously also have religious societies in moral decay.

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I never stated religious societies in general, I stated religious societies with correct guidance. And in all honesty, with all the countries I've visited around the world and read about and met people from, the ones who are the most polite, the most generous, the least judgemental and the least morally decadent are the ones from countries where there is still a strong religious influence on society.

 

[freethinker44]

I never stated religious societies in general, I stated religious societies with correct guidance. And in all honesty, with all the countries I've visited around the world and read about and met people from, the ones who are the most polite, the most generous, the least judgemental and the least morally decadent are the ones from countries where there is still a strong religious influence on society.

And this is why anecdotal evidence is often useless, because some of the rudest, greediest, the most judgemental and the most superficially moral people I've ever met have also been the most religious people I've ever met.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

And this is why anecdotal evidence is often useless, because some of the rudest, greediest, the most judgemental and the most superficially moral people I've ever met have also been the most religious people I've ever met.

Then you haven't met actual religious people. Plus, like I said, I have also visited many different countries, some with religion, some without, some in between.

The bottom line is, many of the laws you live by, the vast majority, come from one of the three major religions on this planet. That's just an inarguable fact. As society moves further away from religion, we delve deeper into legalising narcotics, legalising prostitution, legalising gambling and so on. All things which corrupt individuals and societies.

 

[Valjean]

I never stated religious societies in general, I stated religious societies with correct guidance. And in all honesty, with all the countries I've visited around the world and read about and met people from, the ones who are the most polite, the most generous, the least judgemental and the least morally decadent are the ones from countries where there is still a strong religious influence on society.

But my impression -- and the impression of social scientists measuring these things -- is exactly opposite this. The societies with the least corruption, lowest crime rates, greatest equality, greatest social security, greatest social mobility, best healthcare, best educational opportunities, least economic inequality -- are all secular.

Social metrics seem to indicate an inverse relationship between religiosity and social morality.

 

[Agondonter]

I certainly do believe a society without correct religious guidance is open to moral decay and we have examples of that all around the world.

[*** staff edit ***]

Stoicism was the superior philosophy of the higher class of citizenry. But although they believed that man is the offspring of God, referred to by Paul in Acts 17:28, it was indeed secular and never achieved the vitality of a religion because it failed to acknowledge God as a living and universal presence. Ultimately, stoicism failed because it promoted social smugness in the fortunate while serving only to encourage stoical resignation in the unfortunate victims of social deprivation. And consider what passed for entertainment in the day, it's easy to see why Christianity quickly surpassed Stoicism in influence. Aristotelian ethics? Hardly secular when you stop to realize its based on an an “unmoved mover” and “four causes,” both of which were adapted to Christian theology and accepted by many to this day. The Eastern philosophies mentioned? All are a response to the religious impulse in man and saturated with concepts of the divine—which secularism, by definition, rejects.

 

[freethinker44]

Then you haven't met actual religious people. Plus, like I said, I have also visited many different countries, some with religion, some without, some in between.

Alas, I've never met a true Scotsman either.
But I have also visited other countries and lived in different parts of the US, some places were very religious, some weren't religious at all, and my observation holds true for me.

The bottom line is, many of the laws you live by, the vast majority, come from one of the three major religions on this planet. That's just an inarguable fact.

No, it's definitely arguable. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on morality.

As society moves further away from religion, we delve deeper into legalising narcotics, legalising prostitution, legalising gambling and so on. All things which corrupt individuals and societies.

That those things are immoral is also arguable. Everything in moderation, anything will be harmful if done to excess, even religion.

 

[Agondonter]

"The societies with the least corruption, lowest crime rates, greatest equality, greatest social security, greatest social mobility, best healthcare, best educational opportunities, least economic inequality -- are all secular," stagnant, on the decline, and in danger of being overrun by an inferior but more robust culture.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Even the pre-Christian Norse peoples were more attentive to their hygiene during this point.

From what I've read, their standards of hygiene were considered vein by many in their days. Christians? Too ashamed of nudity to even take a bath.
But one thing in particular I like to bring up is that in many pre-Christian European cultures women were not repressed, considered less than, or other views that Christianity spread throughout Europe. Spartan, Norse, and Celtic women especially would have told a priest were to take his shaming and demanding obedience.

 

[Ingledsva]

I never stated religious societies in general, I stated religious societies with correct guidance. And in all honesty, with all the countries I've visited around the world and read about and met people from, the ones who are the most polite, the most generous, the least judgemental and the least morally decadent are the ones from countries where there is still a strong religious influence on society.

There are no major religions out there that haven't committed some atrocity.

The religions of Abraham are guilty of all kinds of atrocities.

The terrorist groups in Islam, the Christian bombers, Muslims and Christians killing each other in Africa, and people leaving these religions, are all signs of those religion's moral decay.

And which countries would you be talking about - with a strong religious influence - that are least judgmental, and least morally decadent? Do they have the freedom to NOT choose religion, or to change religions?

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[Shad]

This thread is an amazing display of empty-headed chin music.

Without exception and without realizing it, those making moral judgments against religion — and Christianity in particular — are basing their judgment on inherited (and evolving) Christian ideals.

Yes lets just ignore that these ideas developed from a past during which a far more barbaric culture existed which many Christians not only accepted as normal but fought to keep normal. Lets forgot about the horrible violence between Christian long before any of these ideas developed. Lets then project these standards as if these do not evolve at all while at the same time whining when society evolves away from their presupposition.

 

[Shad]

I think the proof is in the pudding here, before Christianity the most advanced civilizations considered watching people die horribly the height of sophisticated entertainment. Less wealthy cultures ate each other.
They did not perceive this as immoral

I think we take for granted how Christianity transformed what we perceive as 'normal morality' in the world

Witch-burnings, public executions, hearsay trials. Oh please go on about your enlightened sense of morality. Apparently public torture is not immoral....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Witch-burnings, public executions, hearsay trials. Oh please go on about your enlightened sense of morality. Apparently public torture is not immoral....

If the topic keeps going like this, I'm likely to start quoting Foucault. The Church most certainly made a fine display of its power to punish back in those days. And even really not too long ago with the executions of people like Robert-François Damiens, which makes for an unforgettable opening topic for a book.

 

[Shad]

If the topic keeps going like this, I'm likely to start quoting Foucault. The Church most certainly made a fine display of its power to punish back in those days. And even really not too long ago with the executions of people like Robert-François Damiens, which makes for an unforgettable opening topic for a book.

The article is pure propaganda based nostalgia for a time that never existed based on a past that never existed. It is a pure construct developed to avoid the obvious implication that modern Christianity evolved thus has no more reliable a basis for it's view than the views of a society that is shifting away from these "Christian" ideals. So by holding to a false idea which is just projection they can scrap some form of authority for those that know nothing about history beyond high-school courses.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The article is pure propaganda based nostalgia for a time that never existed based on a past that never existed. It is a pure construct developed to avoid the obvious implication that modern Christianity evolved thus has no more reliable a basis for it's view than the views of a society that is shifting away from these "Christian" ideals. So by holding to a false idea which is just projection they can scrap some form of authority for those that know nothing about history beyond high-school courses.

Are you actually claiming that the abhorrent ways of Medieval Europe, which was controlled by the Church, never existed? How do you explain the existence of the Malleus Maleficarum? What about the Salem Witch Trials? The Spanish Inquisition? The many Crusades? Vlad Dracul III? Yes, of course modern Christianity doesn't resemble the Christianity of the past, but that doesn't mean Christianity didn't promote such ways. 'Tis a fact that Christians used to butcher each other, and even believed birth marks were a sure sign of a contract with the devil.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And what article are you referring to?

 

[Demonslayer]

Are you actually claiming that the abhorrent ways of Medieval Europe, which was controlled by the Church, never existed? How do you explain the existence of the Malleus Maleficarum? What about the Salem Witch Trials? The Spanish Inquisition? The many Crusades? Vlad Dracul III?

Don't forget much, much more recently a robustly Christian society using Bible verse to justify human slavery.

 

[Valjean]

Me, I'm still scratching my head over chaplains in the military.

It seems to me, someone who blesses peacemakers, advocates turning the other cheek, returning good for evil, loving thy neighbor; who sees neither Greek nor Roman, Jew nor gentile, but considers all men brothers, would be the last person the military would want anywhere near their troops.

 

[Walter Russell]

I'm not sure myself. I ask because I read a couple of articles lately written by Christians. They were trying to make the case that secularism believes morality is relative and without the never changing "Word of God", morality is subject to the whims of the people. Eventually, this secular society will morally decay.

Right? Wrong?

If God has a moral law and wanted man to know that law, he would write it on mans heart, which he did and not in books which could be changed and manipulated by man over time.

 

[Walter Russell]

I'm not sure myself. I ask because I read a couple of articles lately written by Christians. They were trying to make the case that secularism believes morality is relative and without the never changing "Word of God", morality is subject to the whims of the people. Eventually, this secular society will morally decay.

Right? Wrong?

If God has a moral law and wanted man to know that law, he would write it on mans heart, which he did and not in books which could be changed and manipulated by man over time.