Are secular societies prone to moral decay?

[LuisDantas]

If God has a moral law and wanted man to know that law, he would write it on mans heart, which he did and not in books which could be changed and manipulated by man over time.

And that are so remarkably easy to abuse in order to so consistently support such serious mistakes.

 

[Agondonter]

Not if you understand my entire feeling on the matter.

Feelings don't cut it no matter how you rationalize it. Christianity gave the West universities, hospitals and kept Europe from complete collapse during the Middle Ages. Some even argue that Christianity's underlying belief in a rational God set the stage for modern science. Yes, bad things have been done in the name of religions of every kind, but as far as Christianity goes, the perpetrators are like sparks having rejected the flame that gave it birth. The judgment that those sparks are bad is grounded in the flame of Christian ideals, though often unconsciously so.

The accusations and finger-pointing seen in this thread is secularism at its worst. It's unconscionable, not at all unlike the propaganda spewed out by the likes of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot.

But I'm wasting my time -- pearls before swine and all that. People in the habit of venting their hatred and rage toward anyone or any ideal that dares to suggest that there is an authority beyond themselves will go on unabated until life teaches them otherwise.

 

[LuisDantas]

Feelings don't cut it no matter how you rationalize it. Christianity gave the West universities, hospitals and kept Europe from complete collapse during the Middle Ages.

Did it? What do you see as the likely alternate scenario if Christianity did not exist?

It seems to me that the most likely would be a spread of Paganism, which I can hardly expect to be significantly less interested in universities and hospitals - or for that matter, on avoiding collapse.

 

[Walter Russell]

Feelings don't cut it no matter how you rationalize it. Christianity gave the West universities, hospitals and kept Europe from complete collapse during the Middle Ages. Some even argue that Christianity's underlying belief in a rational God set the stage for modern science. Yes, bad things have been done in the name of religions of every kind, but as far as Christianity goes, the perpetrators are like sparks having rejected the flame that gave it birth. The judgment that those sparks are bad is grounded in the flame of Christian ideals, though often unconsciously so.

The accusations and finger-pointing seen in this thread is secularism at its worst. It's unconscionable, not at all unlike the propaganda spewed out by the likes of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot.

But I'm wasting my time -- pearls before swine and all that. People in the habit of venting their hatred and rage toward anyone or any ideal that dares to suggest that there is an authority beyond themselves will go on unabated until life teaches them otherwise.

Actually the Morocan Moor's who were Muslim contributed more to bring Europe out of the dark age than Christianity

 

[Demonslayer]

Christianity gave the West universities, hospitals and kept Europe from complete collapse during the Middle Ages.

So you're saying without religion, schools and hospitals never would have developed. Does that make sense? Religious people sure do love to credit their faith for darn near everything.

By the way, the first known hospitals were in ancient Egypt long before Christianity.

Some even argue that Christianity's underlying belief in a rational God set the stage for modern science.

Some Christians may argue that, but belief in God(s) predated Christianity and far, far, far more people have believed in other Gods throughout time than Yahweh/Jesus.

So if an underlying belief in God set the stage for modern science, crediting Christianity specifically seems absurd. Wouldn't belief in Ra, Ptah, Zeus or Horus have set the stage for modern science, since they all came long before Yahweh? Why credit Christianity specifically?

Christianity has done far more to hinder science than help it, ditto all religions.

The accusations and finger-pointing seen in this thread is secularism at its worst.

Perhaps you ought to slow down and re-read what I wrote. My statement was simply that religion does not effect goodness or morality one way or the other. I didn't point a finger at religion at all.

The example of human slavery existing in a vastly Christian culture is merely to refute the claims of religious people that religion creates a moral society and without religion we see immorality. Clearly today's more secular society is more moral without human slavery than the slave-owning society in the 1800s that was a lot more Christian.

There are no accusations at all, what have I accused anyone of?

People in the habit of venting their hatred and rage toward anyone or any ideal that dares to suggest that there is an authority beyond themselves will go on unabated until life teaches them otherwise.

You might want to read the posts back to see who's tone is more rage-filled. You've gone on the attack here for some reason when all I did was answer the original post "are secular societies prone to moral decay." My answer was, no, religious societies are not necessarily any more or less moral than secular societies and my example was a 99.9% Christian society embracing human slavery for 200+ years.

I never said religion caused that immorality, I merely showed that religion didn't prevent it.

 

[LuisDantas]

Actually the Morocan Moor's who were Muslim contributed more to bring Europe out of the dark age than Christianity

To be fair, a strong case can be made that Islam would not even exist were it not for Christianity.

 

[Walter Russell]

To be fair, a strong case can be made that Islam would not even exist were it not for Christianity.

Good point and Judaism shaped Islam aswell.

 

[Shad]

Are you actually claiming that the abhorrent ways of Medieval Europe, which was controlled by the Church, never existed?

No. My point was that many Christians create a bubble history in which horrible events of that era, and after, do not reflect Christianity. They also project their modern views back into the past pretending no "true" Christian would act in such a manner. The "Good Old Days" in which only the positives are remembers and the negatives ignored. For example the Pilgrims (Puritians) are often depicted as oppressed people, which they were. However if you go back to the group before settlement they were just as bad as those that oppressed them were. When the Puritans were in power they killed people for their belief since these didn't align with Puritan views, especially Catholics. They used the states power to do so. All the negatives are washed away. Look up some of the Puritan Laws in England and later the colonies.

How do you explain the existence of the Malleus Maleficarum? What about the Salem Witch Trials? The Spanish Inquisition? The many Crusades? Vlad Dracul III? Yes, of course modern Christianity doesn't resemble the Christianity of the past, but that doesn't mean Christianity didn't promote such ways. 'Tis a fact that Christians used to butcher each other, and even believed birth marks were a sure sign of a contract with the devil.

You misunderstood my point so the above is no longer relevant as a question, I agree with those points.

Again many Christians create a propaganda based nostalgia of the past which downplays the negatives. They are revising history so it makes them look better than they were then proceeds to use this fake history to argument against changes in our current society. It is like an old man reminiscing about the 1950 and about how great it was but forgetting segregation.

 

[Agondonter]

Actually the Morocan Moor's who were Muslim contributed more to bring Europe out of the dark age than Christianity

Yes. They transferred the urge to learn and gave the tools to do so, but the goals were different. The Moors developed complex mathematics primarily to know in what direction they should pray, for example; Christians in order to know the mind of God. So, in keeping with the subject matter of this thread, I'm obliged to ask what ethics via politics and power (secularism) contributed apart from the disintegration of Europe.

 

[blue taylor]

I certainly do believe a society without correct religious guidance is open to moral decay and we have examples of that all around the world.

You can not legislate morality. What is moral and what is not is up to each individual. Some think the caste system, sharia law, and polygamy are all immoral. Some people believe that anyone not of their own religion is immoral.

 

[Walter Russell]

They preserved ancient texts and introduced them to

Yes. They transferred the urge to learn and gave the tools to do so, but the goals were different. The Moors developed complex mathematics primarily to know in what direction they should pray, for example; Christians in order to know the mind of God. So, in keeping with the subject matter of this thread, I'm obliged to ask what ethics via politics and power (secularism) contributed apart from the disintegration of Europe.

Europe was just part of the growing materialistic world of its time but not the first. The Catholic Church ruled over the economic structure that made slaves of people with religion as their biggest tool to keep the masses in their place.
its the samething happening today except now it is a global system with multiple religions carrying out their duty to segregate the masses, control them and weild them as a political or military weapon.

 

[Agondonter]

Europe was just part of the growing materialistic world of its time but not the first. The Catholic Church ruled over the economic structure that made slaves of people with religion as their biggest tool to keep the masses in their place.
its the samething happening today except now it is a global system with multiple religions carrying out their duty to segregate the masses, control them and weild them as a political or military weapon.

Mindless chin music, dodgy and worthy of Hitler's propaganda minister. What did secularism contribute?

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes. They transferred the urge to learn and gave the tools to do so, but the goals were different. The Moors developed complex mathematics primarily to know in what direction they should pray, for example; Christians in order to know the mind of God. So, in keeping with the subject matter of this thread, I'm obliged to ask what ethics via politics and power (secularism) contributed apart from the disintegration of Europe.

I don't think we can reach much of a consensus if you are using such out-there premises.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Mindless chin music, dodgy and worthy of Hitler's propaganda minister. What did secularism contribute?

This is a little like asking 'What the heck did black Americans ever contribute in pre-WW1 America?'
Ignoring the central role the Church played in all politics from about 400AD onwards would seem strange.

 

[LuisDantas]

Also, one has to ask what the Church asked for and consumed in return. And what its absence would liberate in its wake.

I suppose that is highly speculative, but what I know of Christianity does not lead me to believe that it would be sorely missed had it never existed.

 

[Dubio]

If God has a moral law and wanted man to know that law, he would write it on mans heart, which he did and not in books which could be changed and manipulated by man over time.

I like it.

 

[Dubio]

Let's get specific for a moment. Evangelicals look at the moral decline in America and blame it on secularism as well as the removal of prayer in schools, etc..

True? False?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Christianity gave the West universities, hospitals and kept Europe from complete collapse during the Middle Ages.

Huh?

Some even argue that Christianity's underlying belief in a rational God set the stage for modern science.

And they would be wrong. Philosophy, math and sciences existed way prior to Christianity.

The accusations and finger-pointing seen in this thread is secularism at its worst. It's unconscionable, not at all unlike the propaganda spewed out by the likes of Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot.

I also find it odd you can only find those four people when we can all come up with countless Christians who were evil.

Let's get specific for a moment. Evangelicals look at the moral decline in America and blame it on secularism as well as the removal of prayer in schools, etc..

True? False?

False and blasphemous, as surely a deity can't be detained by simple school policy.

 

[viole]

"The societies with the least corruption, lowest crime rates, greatest equality, greatest social security, greatest social mobility, best healthcare, best educational opportunities, least economic inequality -- are all secular," stagnant, on the decline, and in danger of being overrun by an inferior but more robust culture.

You mean they are threatened by a culture with a strong religious identity?

Ciao

- viole

 

[LuisDantas]

Let's get specific for a moment. Evangelicals look at the moral decline in America and blame it on secularism as well as the removal of prayer in schools, etc..

True? False?

False.