Are The Original Manuscripts of New Testament Lost?

[Repox]

Genuine research is required. My theory is Jesus was God, not the son of God . Well, where would you find support for such a theory one may ask. You find it by researching the NT gospels. Why haven't Christians researched their holy book? Well, answers a dedicated Christian, we like Christianity the way it is. Don't rock the boat! What Christians really like is the sacrificial lamb salivation story to save humankind. It has such marvelous appeal. Just believe in Jesus and you'll be saved. It guarantees salvation if you believe the "right way." Wow, what a fantastic motivation to become a Christian.

If you do scholarly research, the kind most critics can't refute, what do you find? Here is an excellent reference for those who want to do respectable research. It is The Lost Gospel Q by Burton L. Mack. The book summarizing scholarly findings, which verify the existing of a prior gospel, one used by NT authors to write their gospels. In short, scholars are in agreement that NT authors used prior gospels for their gospels. Then, if you do some more research you'll find all those "NT gospel stories" about the son of God are not found in prior gospels. Those prior gospels, in particular The Gospel of Thomas, have Jesus sayings. What is interesting about those sayings is we find Jesus making statements about the "kingdom of God." If Jesus was God, wouldn't He talk about heaven? If you carefully follow Mack's analysis of the NT gospels what you find is Jesus movement leaders changing the Jesus narrative. Thirty to Forty years after Jesus was murdered, they decided Jesus was the son of God. Prior to that time, they defined Jesus as a sage, or wise man. Then, about the same time, they decided Jesus was crucified. Research it. You find no historical documents verifying the crucifixion of Jesus. My theory is Jesus movement leaders needed a really good martyrdom story to promote their new religion.

 

[Repox]

Your knowledge of Islam is extremely poor. If you knew basics of Islam you'd know that it's the same God who gave Jews the Torah so why would He say for Himself that He's a pagan god? Qur'an does not command to kills Jews and it's filled with peaceful verses you just don't want to read them. And if you ask me OT is pretty brutal until rabbis or other well educated Jews don't explain what's behind the verse and wider picture.

No, I have read the Qur'an. If you want, I can post five verses which state Muslims should kill Christians and Jews. One states to kill them on sight. Again, if Allah is God, why did he use Jewish holy books to write the Qur'an? Yes, the OT is brutal about pagan gods, but the subject is Islam. You posted it is an authentic religion. If the Qur'an is authentic, why did it plagiarize Jewish holy books?

 

[shmogie]

Unfortunately, your information about prophet Mohammed saws and Islam is a wrong. Following are a few corrections:

• Prophet was illeterate, he never been breached or educated Judaism or Christianity
• He grown up in Mecca where only 1 or 2 Christians were there.
• The first time he met a Jew when he moved to Madina after he became a prophet
• Food restrictions in Islam is different from that in Judaism
• Previous prophets stories is not identical. A complete detailed stories about israiliets that even don't exist in OT

Copying from OT or NT is just allegations with neither eveidanc nor logic

What you're saying is that Prophet was very very smart youth who planned to build a big empire, then he challenged Judaic and Christian belief. It doesn't make any sense because of :

• He died in a very humble house like everyone. Left no money at all
• He doesn't have to justify conquest of Christian or Jewish lands. Actually Jews has no single kingdom at that time
• If it's all about building an empire, many people should do like him and succeed, like Carl Marcos for example or Genghis Khan or Napoleon or Hitler

So this allegations about conquest has no support
BTW the copying and parallelism is well proofed between NT and OT.

No, what I am saying is that mohammed was a vicious, violent, perverted, thug who was used by the forces of hell, Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them". So lets look at mohammeds "fruit". Forced conversion, torture for enemies in which he liked to take part (hadith) (koran), invasion of territory and murder of the occupants who would not convert, Total subjigation of women, encouraging lying (taqqiya), he married a six year old girl, (hadith), he liked to take baths with naked children (hadith), he devised special tortures for special people i.e the Sikhs. islam, as a result of him, perpetuated constant warfare on Christian lands, the Crusades came in response to islamic violence 200 hundred years after it started, and the Crusades killed many fewer muslims than Christians killed by muslims in the continuing attacks by muslims. mohammed promoted slavery, and it exists to this day in islamic countries, You have no idea how many Christians or Jews he knew and I didn't say he read the NT/OT I said the knowledge was conveyed through them, and he no doubt heard what was written. I have no idea who Carl Marcos is or was.

 

[whirlingmerc]

A highly knowledgeable professor, Bart Erhman, who studied under Bruce Metzger, gives the evidences!

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THIS?

Although, the original manuscripts the writers first wrote on probably are not around, just copies it doesn't matter. It also doesn't matter that there are mostly stylistic variations (the most common the movable nu) Having many thousands of early copies we can surmise the original pretty well.... most have explaining words inserted or other explaining words, some are obvious copy mistakes like horses in hair instead of braids and speaks to the faithfulness of the copyists in copying what appeared an obvious scribal mistake... when you take the manuscripts in ensemble we have a pretty clear idea of what the original says Additionally all but about 11 verses in the New Testament can be reconstructed form quoted of early church leaders within the first 150 years or so. Copyists tend to conflate with extra words they feel are explanatory words and so the meaning is generally not different and there is a rule used that the shorter is the more likely as copyists tend to add.

 

[Sara Thinks]

It is only when the words are penned by the Prophet and independently verified that you can claim 100% authenticity. Otherwise it is 'hearsay'. This video simply strengthens the case for the Christians who relied on memory too, until they had their first Gospels.

It simply does not make any sense to argue the spoken word passed down by oral traditions is more authentic than what is written.

I believe in both the Gospels and the Quran but am an adherent of neither religion.

It is only when the words are penned by the Prophet and independently verified that you can claim 100% authenticity. Otherwise it is 'hearsay'. This video simply strengthens the case for the Christians who relied on memory too, until they had their first Gospels.

It simply does not make any sense to argue the spoken word passed down by oral traditions is more authentic than what is written.

I believe in both the Gospels and the Quran but am an adherent of neither religion.

adrian009
Despite having the original Gospels, we don't even know who wrote them! How can you believe in something If you don't know the author ? whether the information came from a reliable person or not.

In case of Quran, it is read by millions of Muslims everyday. And every year they get together and read the whole Quran in the prayer in the duration of 30 days. The reciter reads the Quran, hundreds and thousands of Muslims follows him. If the reciter makes any mistake, then the others corrects them. Its really easy to memorize the Quran, you will find thousands of Muslims memorizing it still today.

Quran is 20% of the Whole bible and it has a rhythm to it, so its really easy to memorize.

It was great having conversation with you. You will find more information in this YouTube channel and watch the HISTORY of ISLAM

 

[Limo]

No, what I am saying is that mohammed was a vicious, violent, perverted, thug who was used by the forces of hell, Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them". So lets look at mohammeds "fruit". Forced conversion, torture for enemies in which he liked to take part (hadith) (koran), invasion of territory and murder of the occupants who would not convert, Total subjigation of women, encouraging lying (taqqiya), he married a six year old girl, (hadith), he liked to take baths with naked children (hadith), he devised special tortures for special people i.e the Sikhs. islam, as a result of him, perpetuated constant warfare on Christian lands, the Crusades came in response to islamic violence 200 hundred years after it started, and the Crusades killed many fewer muslims than Christians killed by muslims in the continuing attacks by muslims. mohammed promoted slavery, and it exists to this day in islamic countries, You have no idea how many Christians or Jews he knew and I didn't say he read the NT/OT I said the knowledge was conveyed through them, and he no doubt heard what was written. I have no idea who Carl Marcos is or was.

You don't discuss, You don't read or understand, you don't debate, you're just push what is in your head stereotypes, prejudgement, defile, and insults
End of discussion

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi Sara, Nice to meet you too and to discuss the nature of the Holy books of the two world religions with the most adherents.

How long have you been a Muslim? I grew up a Christian but became a Baha'i over 25 years ago. Baha'is believe both Jesus and Muhammad to be messengers of God and that both Holy books are relatively authentic.

Despite having the original Gospels, we don't even know who wrote them! How can you believe in something If you don't know the author ? whether the information came from a reliable person or not.

We actually have a good idea who wrote them, but with 2,000 years of history we don't have complete certainty by the standards of modern history scholars. That is very different.

In case of Quran, it is read by millions of Muslims everyday. And every year they get together and read the whole Quran in the prayer in the duration of 30 days. The reciter reads the Quran, hundreds and thousands of Muslims follows him. If the reciter makes any mistake, then the others corrects them. Its really easy to memorize the Quran, you will find thousands of Muslims memorizing it still today.

Quran is 20% of the Whole bible and it has a rhythm to it, so its really easy to memorize.

Lets examine your claim:

The life and teachings of Jesus is contained in the four gospels

Matthew 18,346 words, Mark 11,304 , Luke 19,482 and John 15,635
Total = 64,767

As for the number of the words of the Qur'an it is:
77,449 words

Word counts for every book of the Bible (free download) | Overview Bible

https://www.quora.com/How-many-letters-words-and-verses-are-used-in-the-holy-Quran

Then take into account the repetition in the synoptic gospels and there is much less. Then consider only one gospel was being memorised for many so we have less than 20,000 words. The Jews had been relying on oral tradition long before Muhammad united disparate tribes of the Arabian peninsula and the authors of the gospels appear well educated. So there were much more words to remember for the Muslims compared to the Christians when they passed down through oral traditions their gospels.

As an aside, I have two copies of the Holy Quran in my home along with four copies of the Holy Bible.

All the best

 

[Limo]

Baha'is believe both Jesus and Muhammad to be messengers of God and that both Holy books are relatively authentic.

This is interesting.
As you know, In Islam we believe in all true prophets and all true books. The problem is to proof that this is the true book. Even non-Ismalic studies highlighted many issues in the NT to the level that It's not even original.
This is not the what I liked to discuss with you.

I'm interested in knowing, how you've grouped the belief in Quran and NT together in light of :

• The deity of Jesus-Christ against the humanity of Al-Masseh in Quran
  
• Trinity (some people belief it's biblical) against Quran Oneness
• Crucifixion, Death, and resurrection against neither crucified nor killed in Quran
• Salvation against direct connection to Allah

Many issues that can't group together in one belief.
Regards

 

[shmogie]

You don't discuss, You don't read or understand, you don't debate, you're just push what is in your head stereotypes, prejudgement, defile, and insults
End of discussion

I understand very well. You can't refute hard fact and truth. If you could you would do so.

 

[Limo]

I understand very well. You can't refute hard fact and truth. If you could you would do so.

What hard facts and truth ?
You didn't even submit an single supporting evidence or logic.
As I said, you've a few ideas in your mind, you're just posting it. That's it.

 

[shmogie]

What hard facts and truth ?
You didn't even submit an single supporting evidence or logic.
As I said, you've a few ideas in your mind, you're just posting it. That's it.

So then, you deny that what I wrote is true ? Do you want the quotations from the hadith, the sura's from the koran, and the evidence of objective history ? Simply identify what is incorrect, and I'll prove it,

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hi Limo,

Islam is a religion that I know a little about but know much more about Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. The final authority as a Baha'i rests with the teachings of Baha'u'llah who is the more recent 'Manifestation of God'.

In that light lets consider the questions you raise:

I'm interested in knowing, how you've grouped the belief in Quran and NT together in light of :

• The deity of Jesus-Christ against the humanity of Al-Masseh in Quran

Jesus makes conflicting and apparently contradictory statements about His Divinity. Jesus was a man like Muhammad. Neither are God. However when God speaks through Jesus and speaks as God, then it sounds as if Jesus is God. He is not.

Trinity (some people belief it's biblical) against Quran Oneness

There is one God, not three. Muhammad said it would be better not to speak of the trinity. He was correct. The word trinity is not present anywhere in the bible.

Crucifixion, Death, and resurrection against neither crucified nor killed in Quran

Jesus was crucified. When Muhammad speaks that he was not crucified, Baha'i would understand that He means that His Spirit was not crucified and continued to live.

The resurrection is spiritual, not physical.

Salvation against direct connection to Allah

Salvation is through Christ for the Christians, and Muhammad for the Muslim. Salvation requires faith and pure and holy deeds that reflect that faith.

Many issues that can't group together in one belief.
Regards

It doesn't bother me and appears clear as the noon day sun. Clearly it bothers some Christians and Muslims.

 

[Limo]

Hi Limo,

Islam is a religion that I know a little about but know much more about Christianity and the Baha'i Faith. The final authority as a Baha'i rests with the teachings of Baha'u'llah who is the more recent 'Manifestation of God'.

In that light lets consider the questions you raise:



Jesus makes conflicting and apparently contradictory statements about His Divinity. Jesus was a man like Muhammad. Neither are God. However when God speaks through Jesus and speaks as God, then it sounds as if Jesus is God. He is not.



There is one God, not three. Muhammad said it would be better not to speak of the trinity. He was correct. The word trinity is not present anywhere in the bible.



Jesus was crucified. When Muhammad speaks that he was not crucified, Baha'i would understand that He means that His Spirit was not crucified and continued to live.

The resurrection is spiritual, not physical.



Salvation is through Christ for the Christians, and Muhammad for the Muslim. Salvation requires faith and pure and holy deeds that reflect that faith.



It doesn't bother me and appears clear as the noon day sun. Clearly it bothers some Christians and Muslims.

Thanks for the explanation.
For sure it's inconvenient for me, and it's normal . I'll not debate it but let me correct a few answers about Islam:

• Allah call people who believe in Trinity, or Jesus's deity/divinity, or God the Son of Christ "Kafer" infidel/disbeliever, not just "it would be better"
• Allah said in Quran that Jesus was neither Crucified nor died. Allah said they've been fooled, he saved him, he raised him to Heaven alive till date
• No salvation through Mohamed or any other prophet before or after Mohamed saws. in Islam, No salvation through any body. Everyone is directly connected to Allah. He just need to repentance his own sins and follow true belief and true prophets

Regards

 

[Limo]

So then, you deny that what I wrote is true ? Do you want the quotations from the hadith, the sura's from the koran, and the evidence of objective history ? Simply identify what is incorrect, and I'll prove it,

Look for such situations, it'll not help.
You used to post well known verses, Hadeeths, historical evidences.
At the end of day, you don't accept explanation or justification.
May be you can create a new post

 

[shmogie]

Look for such situations, it'll not help.
You used to post well known verses, Hadeeths, historical evidences.
At the end of day, you don't accept explanation or justification.
May be you can create a new post

There is no justification for torture. There is no justification for slavery. There is no justification for treating women as lesser humans, there is no justification for rape ( as your prophet allowed).

 

[Limo]

There is no justification for torture. There is no justification for slavery. There is no justification for treating women as lesser humans, there is no justification for rape ( as your prophet allowed).

It's your words and thoughts not Islam.

 

[Nakosis]

Interesting post. I'll be very keen to hear what the Christians have to say.

How authentic is the Quran?

The Muslims are pretty much in the same boat. The first complete Quran is dated some 200 years after Mohammed's death. There are fragments available dated some 100 years after Mohammed's death.

But I guess that all is unimportant since the faithful Christians and Muslims believe that God was able to protect his word from corruption, it is God after all.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for the explanation.
For sure it's inconvenient for me, and it's normal . I'll not debate it but let me correct a few answers about Islam:

• Allah call people who believe in Trinity, or Jesus's deity/divinity, or God the Son of Christ "Kafer" infidel/disbeliever, not just "it would be better"
• Allah said in Quran that Jesus was neither Crucified nor died. Allah said they've been fooled, he saved him, he raised him to Heaven alive till date
• No salvation through Mohamed or any other prophet before or after Mohamed saws. in Islam, No salvation through any body. Everyone is directly connected to Allah. He just need to repentance his own sins and follow true belief and true prophets

Regards

You mean these verses?

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? Quran 9:30

And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Quran 4:157

Any others verses we should consider?

 

[Cephus]

The Muslims are pretty much in the same boat. The first complete Quran is dated some 200 years after Mohammed's death. There are fragments available dated some 100 years after Mohammed's death.

But I guess that all is unimportant since the faithful Christians and Muslims believe that God was able to protect his word from corruption, it is God after all.

At least the Muslims have sort of an excuse. Mohammad was illiterate, he never wrote anything down, he gave all of his teachings verbally to his followers who never wrote any of it down until after he died. So you have to rely on, at best, second hand knowledge of what Mohammad supposedly said, and believing that people could remember exactly what was said, without error, for what was likely many years.

 

[Nakosis]

At least the Muslims have sort of an excuse. Mohammad was illiterate, he never wrote anything down, he gave all of his teachings verbally to his followers who never wrote any of it down until after he died. So you have to rely on, at best, second hand knowledge of what Mohammad supposedly said, and believing that people could remember exactly what was said, without error, for what was likely many years.

I suppose I get that. My first thought was Jesus didn't write anything down either really, but he was literate, so why the heck didn't he? So no excuse for Jesus...