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Are there any good arguments for God?

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
"Objective reality" exists.

So the question becomes, not if subjective reality exists, we know that it does because objective reality exists:

So what role does subjective reality play in answering the question of the existence of God?

To what degree does subjective reality belong?
Being that subjective reality is of the mind it would seem to be a bit more conducive to understanding the unseen.
I would say of the two, objective and subjective, the higher degree would be subjective because it is of the mind, while "objective" is of the non permanent material.

To get answers about the existence of God we should be trying to understand the workings of our own mind. Objective reality should be used as a medium of explanation for the subjective.
Reason has it's place but that place is not in the exploration of the unseen, it is in the explanation of the unseen at best.
Einstein spent 10 years in the world of subjective before coming up with e=mc2 , he solved the problem in his subjective experience and applied it to objective reality amazing thing is ....it worked !
 
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ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
When I have evolved into a god I'll make my own universe, make some life, give them my version of a holy book and start telling them what to do. Sort of like the live version of a Playstation game.

IOW, you'd want a bunch of finger puppets worshiping you and singing your praises 24/7/365, all with your voice, with no ability to think or do otherwise. You could call the game, Zombie Angels.

Einstein spent 10 years in the world of subjective before coming up with e=mc2 , he solved the problem in his subjective experience and applied it to objective reality amazing thing is ....it worked !

There have always been bridges between subjective inspiration and objective discovery. They're called epiphanies and eureka moments.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
IOW, you'd want a bunch of finger puppets worshiping you and singing your praises 24/7/365, all with your voice, with no ability to think or do otherwise. You could call the game, Zombie Angels.
Why couldn't a reasonably intelligent and powerful god create people who have free will, agency, intelligence, etc., but all freely choose to worship him because it's the right thing to do?
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
IOW, you'd want a bunch of finger puppets worshiping you and singing your praises 24/7/365, all with your voice, with no ability to think or do otherwise. You could call the game, Zombie Angels.
Right. And if they don't, I'll just drown them. It'll be wonderful spending the rest of eternity with a bunch of finger puppets worshiping me and singing my praises 24/7/365. The rest I'll just kill off. I won't bother with all this hell and eternal torment and stuff.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
Well, by "existence" I mean "existing in reality, as opposed to things that exist only in the imagination."

By "God", I am referring to any supernatural being/creator of the universe,
I like to connect this to the philosophical question why does something exist rather than nothing. If something exists there has to be something that is independent of the object to cause the creation. Whether or not you believe in evolution is beside the point because the rule still applies that something with intelligence has to initiate the object into existence. God is like an engineer or mechanic that builds a 3D printer to make something, in this case evolution is the 3D printer and whatever the engineer decides to create are the worlds. I think that most non-theists believe that matter is eternal, because at what point in their worldview is there nothing and then something? Things don't always just occur.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Why couldn't a reasonably intelligent and powerful god create people who have free will, agency, intelligence, etc., but all freely choose to worship him because it's the right thing to do?


With certain knowledge of an omnipotent God, what mortal would not be influenced to do things they otherwise wouldn't, and not do things they otherwise would, KNOWING that God exits....and is watching. Doing the right thing is not the same when you're being told what's right and do it only because you've been told to. God can create all the "yas'sa boss" angels It wants. Angels, if they’d existed, would have been nothing but God's finger puppets. But I'm sure that, at best, they're only man made symbols representing God's omnipresence.


Right. And if they don't, I'll just drown them. It'll be wonderful spending the rest of eternity with a bunch of finger puppets worshiping me and singing my praises 24/7/365. The rest I'll just kill off. I won't bother with all this hell and eternal torment and stuff.

I don't believe in hell either, only in self-imposed oblivion for those who fed their self-hatred during their lives. And remember, those finger puppets are simply clones of you. But I think your glib answer masks the cage you've built to enclose your ego. Nobody can get to you, good job.

How did you calculate the probability ?

100%. But if somebody could come up with another reason (other than God is wacko, to which the rational universe is a undeniable anti-testament, if God exists, and if God doesn't exist, then Nature is rational, which is also obvious), I'd be willing to amend that probability. Can you think of anything at all?

I like to connect this to the philosophical question why does something exist rather than nothing. If something exists there has to be something that is independent of the object to cause the creation. Whether or not you believe in evolution is beside the point because the rule still applies that something with intelligence has to initiate the object into existence. God is like an engineer or mechanic that builds a 3D printer to make something, in this case evolution is the 3D printer and whatever the engineer decides to create are the worlds. I think that most non-theists believe that matter is eternal, because at what point in their worldview is there nothing and then something? Things don't always just occur.

We don't have any idea if any of the rules we've found in this universe apply elsewhere in the cosmos, if indeed there is an elsewhere.. We haven't got the first clue what if anything initiated the Big Bang because there is absolutely no evidence coming from "before" or "outside" of our universe, which would even tell us there is an outside, much less evidence for its cause.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If you were an omnipotent God, what mortal would not be influenced to do things they otherwise wouldn't, and not do things they otherwise would, KNOWING God exits....and is watching. And doing the right thing is not the same when you're being told what's right and do it only because you've been told to.
Intelligent beings with free will will make different choices when the parameters of the situation change. I don't see how this gets you to the conclusion you're arguing, though.

God can create all the "yas'sa boss" angels It wants. Angels would have been nothing but God's finger puppets--if they'd ever existed existed at all. But I'm sure that, at best, they're only man made symbols representing God's omnipotence.
So you don't acknowledge any difference between a being with free will and reason who rationally chooses the obviously best option and a robot that has been programmed to choose the best option?

(... while also arguing that free will really is a thing)
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Intelligent beings with free will will make different choices when the parameters of the situation change.

Yeah, if they're being intimidated or otherwise made to feel insignificant. How would the insinuation of divine "parameters" not diminish one's feeling of freedom to exercise one's will.

So you don't acknowledge any difference between a being with free will and reason who rationally chooses the obviously best option and a robot that has been programmed to choose the best option?

(... while also arguing that free will really is a thing)

First off, with free will, the most common violations of the "best option" for doing what's right, is using that free will to justify one's vanity to committing murder et al, and calling that what's right because your ego says so. It's the necessary evil down side to free will. The root of ALL evil is a moral/legal double standard.

I feel sure there are other fully self-aware creatures in the universe with free will. And if AI is ever developed with full self-awareness, it will have free will as well. And, contrariwise, without that awareness, there would be no accompanying free will.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Yeah, if they're being intimidated or otherwise made to feel insignificant. How would the insinuation of divine "parameters" not diminish one's feeling of freedom to exercise one's will.
Depends on the God, but assuming we're talking about one that's all-knowing and all-powerful, I'm sure he could figure something out.

In any case, your inability to think of possibilities other than the one you've latched onto doesn't mean no other possibilities exist.

First off, with free will, the most common violations of the "best option" for doing what's right, is using that free will to justify one's vanity to committing murder et al, and calling that what's right because your ego says so. It's the necessary evil down side to free will. The root of ALL evil is a moral/legal double standard.

I feel sure there are other fully self-aware creatures in the universe with free will. And if AI is ever developed with full self-awareness, it will have free will as well. And, contrariwise, without that awareness, there would be no accompanying free will.
Sorry - not really sure what you're going on about here.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
Depends on the God, but assuming we're talking about one that's all-knowing and all-powerful, I'm sure he could figure something out.

The evidence says otherwise, given there is a God in the first place. If there is a God, that would be the only reason for It to say hidden, so as not to interact. A non-interactive God or no God are the only two models

In any case, your inability to think of possibilities other than the one you've latched onto doesn't mean no other possibilities exist.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that as long as I've been a deist, but maintaining our free will is all I've been able to come up with, I, or anyone else. Of course most other non-deists/atheists can only come up with an interactive god(s) which doesn't fit the facts. If we're hear to try to live righteously and pursue the Truth, it looks like a no-brainer, though the other side appears to have beaten me to it. :rolleyes:

Sorry - not really sure what you're going on about here.

The best option for doing what's right is in the eye of the beholder with free will. Unfortunately that choice is all to often determined by the "beholder" to be that he is the most important one in his world--thus justifying murder etc. in his mind. ERGO, a moral double standard is the root of all evil.

Morality is honoring equal rights of all to life, liberty, property and self-defense, to be free from violation through force or fraud.

Now, isn't that moral code, in one simple sentence (a restatement of the Golden Rule), a whole lot more reasonable than all the many different and extensive holy scriptures and revelations purveyed by the plethora of religions in the world? And the only ("only" :cool:) requisite to have the capacity to come up with or recognize this, each on his own, is full self-awareness.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If there is some random number generator for universes producing an infinite number of different universes I don't see how a universe with our parameters could have failed to come up sooner or later.
Two things:
1) There is no evidence for such a multiverse. The reason theoretical physicists and cosmologists posit such a multiverse cosmology is to remove the need to explain how "special" our universe seems to be.
2) Even with infinitely many different universes, it would be easy for none to allow life. For one thing, it is trivial to show that probabilities with infinite sets don't work out as expected. For example: there are infinitely many rational numbers between 0 and 1 (and infinitely many between any two rational numbers; the rational numbers are "dense" in the real line). So intuition would have us think that were we to pick a number between 0 and 1 at random, we'd likely get a rational number. Actually, however, the probability of picking a rational number rather than an irrational number is 0. This is because the rational numbers are a "tiny" infinite set (they are countable).
Another way of looking at this is to consider one parameter such as the cosmological constant. Imagine that in each universe the value changed by some non-zero amount less than 1. There are infinitely many rational numbers in this range, such that we could have infinitely many universes in which the value was plus or minus some rational number less than 0, leaving a far larger set of irrational-valued changes never realized. Worse still, we can do this again but instead of a change of value less than 1, we could make it less than .5, or .2, or .0000000000001, and every time there would still be infinitely many rational numbers it could change by (and every time the number of irrational numbers never found in any universe would be greater than the entire set of rational numbers).
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
@Tiberius

1. The first cause argument knocks materialism out of the way at the very least.

2. Polarity allows for the possibility of something both nonmaterial and conscious, as matter is unconscious.

3. The consistent psychological benefits suggest that belief is a whole lot more than wishful fabrication.

4. The double slit experiment shows the need for something to keep some matter out of superposition at all times.

5. The upper paleolithic revolution shows a massive leap in human cognition not consistent with naturalistic evolution.

6. There are millions of consistent personal spiritual experiences.

7. The human mind itself is at least partially unnatural, able to overcome nature itself even to the extent where our species alone has caused massive trauma to the environment and accelerated global warming.

These are my main ones.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
1. The first cause argument knocks materialism out of the way at the very least.

No it does not.

It is was laughably refuted a very long time ago.

At best it only moves goal post

5. The upper paleolithic revolution shows a massive leap in human cognition not consistent with naturalistic evolution.

No it does not.

Anthropology has overturned it

2. Polarity allows for the possibility of something both nonmaterial and conscious, as matter is unconscious.

No it does not.

That's why you have nothing credible to offer

6. There are millions of consistent personal spiritual experiences.

None of them credible

able to overcome nature itself

How so?


seems very imaginative

7. The human mind itself is at least partially unnatural,

factually false. It is a product of nature
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
No it does not.

It is was laughably refuted a very long time ago.

At best it only moves goal post



No it does not.

Anthropology has overturned it



No it does not.

That's why you have nothing credible to offer



None of them credible



How so?


seems very imaginative



factually false. It is a product of nature

I'm done with your rude ****ing claims which you never support. Enjoy ignore.
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
IOW, you'd want a bunch of finger puppets worshiping you and singing your praises 24/7/365, all with your voice, with no ability to think or do otherwise. You could call the game, Zombie Angels.



There have always been bridges between subjective inspiration and objective discovery. They're called epiphanies and eureka moments.

I'd just buy some earplugs , can I have this can I have that , sick of hearing it .
God uses e=mc2 is a measure of how many victims is required to keep the ball rolling per se
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I'm done with your rude ****ing claims which you never support. Enjoy ignore.

Mine are supportable or I would not post it. YOU however have never supplied a credible link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

What caused the First Cause?

One objection to the argument is that it leaves open the question of why the First Cause is unique in that it does not require any causes. Proponents argue that the First Cause is exempt from having a cause, while opponents argue that this is special pleading or otherwise untrue


Identity of a First Cause

Even if one accepts the cosmological argument as a proof of a First Cause, an objection against the theist implication of the proposition is that it does not necessarily identify that First Cause with a god


Bruce Reichenbach provides a summary of the dispute as:

"... whether there needs to be a cause of the first natural existent, whether something like the universe can be finite and yet not have a beginning, and the nature of infinities and their connection with reality".[18]
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1. The first cause argument knocks materialism out of the way at the very least.
I'm not sure how. Of course, I don't think materialism is really defensible anyway (or to the extent it is, it must be sufficiently different from classical materialism s.t. the "material" or "physical" includes things such as information, "virtual" particles, processes, functions, etc.). The "first cause" argument assumes a linear and singular model of causality that cannot be true without time, and therefore doesn't apply to the start of time (or spacetime) itself. It is also the same kind of reductionist, mechanical thinking that doesn't allow for consciousness or free will, it doesn't hold of many phenomena and arguably doesn't make sense relativistically (at the very least, it would have to show how locally the same sequence of events can have a different order depending upon where the observer is). There are other issues, but again these don't really matter as physics "knocks materialism out of the way".

2. Polarity allows for the possibility of something both nonmaterial and conscious, as matter is unconscious.
Assuming that consciousness exists (and I believe it does), it need not be material to emerge like so many other processes in biological systems from those systems (e.g., metabolism, internally regulated and maintained homeostasis, internal representation of the external world, etc.).

3. The consistent psychological benefits suggest that belief is a whole lot more than wishful fabrication.
How?

4. The double slit experiment shows the need for something to keep some matter out of superposition at all times.
It doesn't. The standard interpretation holds that quantum systems are abstract, mathematical devices we use for prediction, not to understand nature. Quantum mechanics is an irreducibly statistical theory, but unlike with statistical mechanics there is no other, deeper level analogue of classical mechanics that we could use in principal were things not too complicated (hence irreducible). I think this is misguided. However, even assuming that physical systems are actually in superpositional states (and, in particular, that it is meaningful to ask questions like "where was the photon/electron" before it was detected in the double-slit experiment), all that is needed is interaction with the environment. The main question in physics isn't so much "how are superposition states destroyed?" because we know how. It's "how can we maintain such states/processes?"

5. The upper paleolithic revolution shows a massive leap in human cognition not consistent with naturalistic evolution.
I'm not sure what you meant to say here. Any such leap in cognition would result in another species. Human cognition is just that: human. It applies to an enormous range of possible abilities because cognition is fundamentally influenced by culture and environment. The biggest leaps in cognition came with writing and civilization. Humans have been around for tens of thousands of years, and most of that time we've lived almost the same in small nomadic tribes with sticks and stones. Then came agriculture and with it the ability to have more permanent civilizations, and a few thousand years later we're building supercomputers and spacecraft. Cognitive leaps aren't biological changes (unless, again, you're talking about a different species).

6. There are millions of consistent personal spiritual experiences.
The problem with this evidence is that, even though it is evidenced, it is often hard (certainly for me) to find convincing without having such an experience.

7. The human mind itself is at least partially unnatural, able to overcome nature itself even to the extent where our species alone has caused massive trauma to the environment and accelerated global warming.
Long before humans (millions and millions of years before humans), a horrible, corrosive gas was released upon early life. It killed much of this life, and changed the atmosphere. Nothing humans have done has come remotely close to this process, which fundamentally changed not only the earth's atmospheric concentrations (changing a trace gas to a major portion of the atmosphere), but basically all life (even us). This life-ending, dangerous pollutant was...oxygen:

"In the beginning there was no oxygen. Four billion years ago, the air probably contained about one part in a million of oxygen. Today, the atmosphere is just less than 21 per cent oxygen, or 208 500 parts per million. However this change might have come about, it is pollution without parallel in the history of life on Earth. We do not think of it as pollution, because for us, oxygen is necessary and life-giving. For the tiny single-celled organisms that lived on the early Earth, however, oxygen was anything but life-giving. It was a poison that could kill , even at trace levels. A lot of oxygen-hating organisms still exist, living in stagnant swamps or beneath the seabed, even in our own guts. Many of these die if exposed to an oxygen level above 0.1 per cent of present atmospheric levels. For their ancestors, who ruled the ancient world, pollution with oxygen must have been calamitous. From dominating the world they shrank back to a reclusive existence at the margins."
Lane, N. (2002). Oxygen: The molecule that made the world. Oxford University Press.
If you want a more technical source for the fact that "[v]irtually all atmospheric oxygen derives from a single metabolism, oxygenic photosynthesis" see here (also here).
There have been five mass extinctions, we aren't the first life form to radically change the planet (or the atmosphere) and our changes pale in comparison to simple life forms many, many millions of years ago.

I've seen the human mind argued as evidence for god (e.g., Moreland, J. P. (2010). Consciousness and the existence of God: A theistic argument. Routledge.), but arguing that the human mind is evidence because of how we changed the environment is, I think, not really evidence.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
We haven't got the first clue what if anything initiated the Big Bang
Something had to have. Things don't just explode or expand, especially when the thing expanding is nothing.
much less evidence for its cause.
We're here. If you follow that line of thinking we shouldn't be here. Nothing should be here if the universe or evolution has no cause. Evolution wouldn't even be in existence. And yet here we are arguing.
 
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