Are there any good arguments for God?

[Tiberius]

It seems to work for myself and many others.
We have answers and you do not.
Perhaps you are wrong?

*Sigh*

Very well, please tell me what questions science is trying to find the answers to can be answered using your technique of "We are the universe in miniature. Anything you need to know, just ask yourself."

Perhaps you can use this to find out what dark matter is.

In other words, please show me how this idea can be put to practical use.

 

[Tiberius]

God is the Heart.

Arbitrary redefinition.

The name was to focus that the heart has its own entity which you can't claim to be your own.

Citation needed. Provide evidence that my heart is a being separate to myself.

If there is an ownership than its you who can give yourself to the heart. An entity which, when a human decide against its natural reason (evil tongues ridicule the natural moral), it will manipulate/illusion the human's senses (emotions, thoughts, eyes, ears, words,etc... > that creates others outer attraction and one's inner rejection) until they realize that the heart is God and cant be theirs. Yourself it to awaken in love of God.

As long as you are alive God is alive as your heart if believed or not.

Yeah, this really is new age mumbo jumbo.

 

[Tiberius]

Rational, perhaps not. Reasonable, it often is.

How can it be reasonable when it is not based on reason?

As in not allowing it at all?

Woah, who said anything about making religious beliefs illegal?

But that is not so much theism as the habit of giving it free reign.

Doesn't religion often demand that it be given a free reign?

 

[Tiberius]

What is it exactly that theists hope for?

Hope that there's some guiding force, that there's some cosmic plan that we are all a part of, even if we don't realise it. That way, religion can be used to comfort people who have horrible things happen. "Oh, there's a reason your kids, husband and parents were all killed in that car crash, and you alone survived. God has a plan for us. God works in mysterious ways."

In short, it's a hope that there is going to be justice always.

At least, I guess, it's been a long time since I was religious, and I was never really that deep into it.

 

[Tiberius]

It's the best definition for God available, particularly better than hearsay revelations of self-appointed prophets. Science is indeed the best way to find objective Truth, i.e. knowledge, but Truth means a lot more than just knowledge. Science uncovers objective knowledge, but is not involved in the subjective Truth of art (beyond supplying the tools), and is only partially involved in the subjective/objective aspects of Truth, justice and love..

And completely unneccessary too, since we already have a word which we use to describe truth. And that word is TRUTH.

I'm also curious. How can Truth be subjective, as you say? If it is true for some people, but not for others, then how can it be TRUTH? Isn't that just OPINION?

 

[allfoak]

*Sigh*

Very well, please tell me what questions science is trying to find the answers to can be answered using your technique of "We are the universe in miniature. Anything you need to know, just ask yourself."

Perhaps you can use this to find out what dark matter is.

In other words, please show me how this idea can be put to practical use.

I am sorry that i exhaust you so much.

What you are asking is impossible.

 

[Tiberius]

I forgive you.

Yeah, that's not what I was going for there...

Can you point me to something that has NO effect in reality?

A fellow named Njnegojafbvaiuerbqekrb the Unpronouncable. Please show me some effect he has had anywhere in the universe.

I'm not doing that. From where did you pull that up? I said IF. Do you know what that means? Is up to you to decide IF you want to do that or not and you already made clear what is your choice.

Here:

If you change that concept for, let's say, "GOD = REALITY" would that make sense?

Again, I'm not saying to you that God equals reality, I said IF God IS reality. I wanted your opinion about that exclusive scenario. I wanted you to at least work a little with that statement and come up with your own opinion about the matter. And what did you do? You shove it off saying NO. You could have said that in the beginning "No, I don't want to think about it, I only want to defend that God doesn't exist".

You asked me to accept it as part of your hypothetical situation. But all your hypothetical situation seemed to be was, "If we redefine God to mean the same thing as something that exists, then we can say that God exists." That's very weak logic.

Obs: The premise here is that you don't want to believe in the "existence of God" and you are here right now just to keep defending that belief. I can be wrong. Maybe you are lost and want to find answers. Maybe you are just another human being like everyone else, who knows?

Or maybe I just think it's stupid to say, "Let's have the word God mean <<insert something that exists here>> and then since that thing exists, then we can say God exists as well."

That's pretty stupid logic.

 

[Tiberius]

I like to connect this to the philosophical question why does something exist rather than nothing.

Because if nothing existed, we wouldn't be here to wonder why nothing existed.

If something exists there has to be something that is independent of the object to cause the creation.

How do you know?

Whether or not you believe in evolution is beside the point because the rule still applies that something with intelligence has to initiate the object into existence. God is like an engineer or mechanic that builds a 3D printer to make something, in this case evolution is the 3D printer and whatever the engineer decides to create are the worlds. I think that most non-theists believe that matter is eternal, because at what point in their worldview is there nothing and then something? Things don't always just occur.

So if God exists, there has to be something independent of God to cause God.

So who created God?

 

[Tiberius]

The personal experiences of theists are about the only thing I can think of that keep my mind open to the idea of a certain kind of God.

But is that enough?

Is my personal experience of being able to change into a flying squirrel enough to keep your mind open to the possibility of, "Hey, maybe Tiberius really CAN turn into a flying squirrel!" I doubt it.

 

[Willamena]

How can you say that when it is the investigation of reality (often called SCIENCE) that has provided so many answers. What keeps the sun shining? How do tides work? How can I avoid getting ill? Science provides answers.

I just don't buy that reality provides the answer in the investigation of reality. It seems a non-answer to me.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Not things, nothing. You're saying that an explosion or expansion just happened in the middle of nothing and now we're here.

Not something physical though.

Just sayin' we can dismiss the supernatural or the superphysical.

And completely unneccessary too, since we already have a word which we use to describe truth. And that word is TRUTH.

The one thing we don't have any academic courses in. In fact there isn't even a Dewey Decimal number for it.

I'm also curious. How can Truth be subjective, as you say? If it is true for some people, but not for others, then how can it be TRUTH? Isn't that just OPINION?

Because, it appears, there are several aspects of Truth--at least four that I can count = knowledge, justice, love and beauty...objective blending to subjective. Is beauty (and art) not Truth? And isn't beauty subjective? Each aspect or realm of Truth involves the subjective, the objective, and (at least two) aspects of both.

Society/people don't want to study Truth, because then, for most of history, Truth becomes an obstacle.

 

[LuisDantas]

How can it be reasonable when it is not based on reason?

By acknowledging the need for reason, usually.

Woah, who said anything about making religious beliefs illegal?

No one. Unlawing something and disallowing it are entirely different things.

Doesn't religion often demand that it be given a free reign?

How often is often?

 

[LuisDantas]

How is rational different from reasonable?

The way I meant the words there, "rational" means directed by reason. Reasonable means not absurd.

 

[Yerda]

But is that enough?

Is my personal experience of being able to change into a flying squirrel enough to keep your mind open to the possibility of, "Hey, maybe Tiberius really CAN turn into a flying squirrel!" I doubt it.

It isn't enough to convince me but the experiences of many theists across space, time and culture are enough for me to keep an open mind. Why do you think is on the same level as claims to be able to shape-shift?

 

[Tiberius]

I am sorry that i exhaust you so much.

What you are asking is impossible.

So what you propose has no actual use. It';s just a feel good thing, but it can't actually tell us anything real about the universe.

So consider this argument for God to be rejected.

 

[Tiberius]

I just don't buy that reality provides the answer in the investigation of reality. It seems a non-answer to me.

If you want to know how the clock works, you can take it apart, study the pendulum, the cogs, the wind up springs, etc. And then you can figure out how it works.

The principle is a little bit more complicated when it comes to finding out reality, but it has been done many times. It's called observation and experimentation. Newton did it with falling objects to figure out how gravity works. Darwin did it to figure out how evolution works.

Besides, if we don't get our raw data from reality, where should we get it from?

 

[Tiberius]

Just sayin' we can dismiss the supernatural or the superphysical.

I see no reason to invoke them in the first place.

The one thing we don't have any academic courses in. In fact there isn't even a Dewey Decimal number for it.

So?

Because, it appears, there are several aspects of Truth--at least four that I can count = knowledge, justice, love and beauty...objective blending to subjective. Is beauty (and art) not Truth? And isn't beauty subjective? Each aspect or realm of Truth involves the subjective, the objective, and (at least two) aspects of both.

How is a piece of art Truth? If I see a beautiful woman, is she more truthful than an ugly woman?

Society/people don't want to study Truth, because then, for most of history, Truth becomes an obstacle.

This sounds like a slogan or a catchphrase, not an argument.

 

[Tiberius]

By acknowledging the need for reason, usually.

But religion doesn't do that. In fact, I;d say that religion encourages the LACK of reason.

No one. Unlawing something and disallowing it are entirely different things.

Then perhaps you could explain what you meant by this:

As in not allowing it at all? Certainly.

How often is often?

Both the Bible and the Koran have passages that call on followers to spread their religion. And I'm sure you know what those books suggest be done to non-believers...

 

[Tiberius]

It isn't enough to convince me but the experiences of many theists across space, time and culture are enough for me to keep an open mind. Why do you think is on the same level as claims to be able to shape-shift?

Ah, so you are invoking the argument from popularity? Lots of people believe it, so maybe there's something to it?

Reality doesn't work like that.

 

[Laika]

Is this the old, "We don't know everything, so religion MIGHT be true" argument?

No. I'm simply pointing out that believing in perfect standards of rationality and objectivity is as illusionary as believing in an omniscient god.