Are these bible passages contradictory?

[astarath]

May truth find you and illumine your path to the kingdom,

 

[Comprehend]

What is this face to face stuff about? Doesn't this just sound like the superstitions of a people that lived 4,000 to 2,000 years ago? Do Christians still believe that people have actually sat down and talk to god face to face? Why doesn't it happen now?

Good point. you would think that if God did that with his prophets back then, He would continue to do it today. LDS believe that He did and still does.The LDS church still has prophets and God still speaks to them face to face, as one man speaks to another. See the first vision of Joseph Smith.

 

[Comprehend]

If you read the Bible like a science text, yes it's contradictory.

If you read it like the literary work it is, it is not necessarily contradictory. Further looking at the text would be required, as there are other passages concerning the nature of God that might reveal whether this is a contradiction or just a use of imagery.

Booko, can you can turn "face to face as one man speaketh to another" into imagery? :areyoucra I will be darn impressed if you can.

I have never thought the main point of the Bible was to be pretty. I think it is to accurately convey a message from God to us. are you suggesting that the bible is made up? or that God was trying his hand at a novel?

 

[Comprehend]

Oops, I see I missed addressing the OP.

God is both immanent and trascendent; as Booko said, it's only contradictory if you try to read it like a science text.

what do you mean by imminent and transcendant?

 

[James the Persian]

If you read the Bible like a science text, yes it's contradictory.

If you read it like the literary work it is, it is not necessarily contradictory. Further looking at the text would be required, as there are other passages concerning the nature of God that might reveal whether this is a contradiction or just a use of imagery.

And if you read it in the context of Christian Tradition (you and many others wouldn't, Booko, but I do and I'd guess comprehend would be interested to as well), then there is absolutely no contradiction. No man Has ever seen God 'face to face', which means in His Essence. This is undoubtedly true of all men but Christ (who was Incarnate as man, but is also fully divine). Christian Tradition however, has always seen the Old Testament Theophanies as appearances of Christ (remember that Christian Theology has God as unbounded by time) and so the Prophets did indeed see God, not in His Essence, but exactly as all those who later saw Christ can be said to have seen God.

James

 

[angellous_evangellous]

so how can all of that be true. Has man seen God as the Bible says? or is it impossible to see God, as the Bible says?

For those who believe the Bible is the perfect word of God, how do you explain these scriptures? Which do you choose to believe, and which do you dismiss (if any)?

For those outside of Christianity, what do you think? Contradictory/No?

First of all, the passages in John that you have presented indicate that no one has ever seen God and not that God has never appeared to anyone. There is a huge theological difference.

The Jews believe that God has no image, and therefore cannot be seen. So when people "see" God or God "appears," the people are not really seeing anything because God has no image at all. If God did have an image, God would be an idol.

Enter Christianity - or Johannine Christianity (that is, Christianity as understood and recorded in the Johannine corpus) - who thinks that Jesus is the incarnation of God. According to Jewish tradition - both now and in the time of "John" - God has no image and cannot be seen. However, John thinks that Jesus is God and therefore can be seen.

When John writes that no person has never seen God, he is hitting a couple of birds with one stone. He is both affirming his Jewish heritage and contrasting it with new Christian doctrines, "No one has ever seen God *according to Jewish heritage*, but now we have seen God in Jesus Christ."

 

[sojourner]

First of all, the passages in John that you have presented indicate that no one has ever seen God and not that God has never appeared to anyone. There is a huge theological difference.

The Jews believe that God has no image, and therefore cannot be seen. So when people "see" God or God "appears," the people are not really seeing anything because God has no image at all. If God did have an image, God would be an idol.

Enter Christianity - or Johannine Christianity (that is, Christianity as understood and recorded in the Johannine corpus) - who thinks that Jesus is the incarnation of God. According to Jewish tradition - both now and in the time of "John" - God has no image and cannot be seen. However, John thinks that Jesus is God and therefore can be seen.

When John writes that no person has never seen God, he is hitting a couple of birds with one stone. He is both affirming his Jewish heritage and contrasting it with new Christian doctrines, "No one has ever seen God *according to Jewish heritage*, but now we have seen God in Jesus Christ."

Finally...a post in this thread that makes sense. Can't fubal ya...have a beer, instead!:drunk:

 

[lunamoth]

what do you mean by imminent and transcendant?

Immanent as inherent or 'within me,' personally accessible to me. I can have a relationship with God and know God.

Transcendent as in Something More than I can fully know.

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'

[FONT=Arial,Bold]

​

[/FONT]Christ be with me, Christ within me,
Christ behind me, Christ before me,
Christ beside me, Christ to win me,
Christ to comfort and restore me.
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ in quiet, Christ in danger,
Christ in hearts of all that love me,
Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.
​

​

 

[FFH]

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

1 Jn 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us

This is a classic case in which the Joseph Smith Translation/Inspired version corrects and clarifies these man altered scriptures

God does not contradict himself....

Man has altered the Bible.

The Bible has been altered to confuse the reader and cause small doubts like these to creep in because of blatant errors, which men have purposely injected into the Bible in order to make God look like he has contradicted himself.

John 1:18
Joseph Smith Inspired version

And No man hath seen God at any time; except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.

1 John 4: 12
Joseph Smith Inspired version

No man hath seen God at any time, except them who believe. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

 

[FFH]

This is precisely what I was trying to convey earlier in the ask a Mormon a question thread.

The Joseph Smith Translation/Inspired version of the Bible has corrected so many contradictions in the King James, that there should no longer be any doubt that God is the author of ALL scripture, as long as it has been translated correctily.

There are a boat load more of these scriptures, which cause confusion and doubt among good Bible believing Christians..

Pick another one and you'll see in every case there is some sort of man created error behind these contradictions in the King James.

 

[lunamoth]

When John writes that no person has never seen God, he is hitting a couple of birds with one stone. He is both affirming his Jewish heritage and contrasting it with new Christian doctrines, "No one has ever seen God *according to Jewish heritage*, but now we have seen God in Jesus Christ."

Oh, just noticed this. Very nice. :yes:

 

[Comprehend]

First of all, the passages in John that you have presented indicate that no one has ever seen God and not that God has never appeared to anyone. There is a huge theological difference.

The Jews believe that God has no image, and therefore cannot be seen. So when people "see" God or God "appears," the people are not really seeing anything because God has no image at all. If God did have an image, God would be an idol.

Enter Christianity - or Johannine Christianity (that is, Christianity as understood and recorded in the Johannine corpus) - who thinks that Jesus is the incarnation of God. According to Jewish tradition - both now and in the time of "John" - God has no image and cannot be seen. However, John thinks that Jesus is God and therefore can be seen.

When John writes that no person has never seen God, he is hitting a couple of birds with one stone. He is both affirming his Jewish heritage and contrasting it with new Christian doctrines, "No one has ever seen God *according to Jewish heritage*, but now we have seen God in Jesus Christ."

Then I don't get the "face to face as one man speaks to another" business. Why would Jews say that about Moses. It would appear they are going out of their way to say that it is not a metaphor but rather just as two regular people talk. What is your understanding with the Moses scripture?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Then I don't get the "face to face as one man speaks to another" business. Why would Jews say that about Moses. It would appear they are going out of their way to say that it is not a metaphor but rather just as two regular people talk.

It means that God spoke with Moses, but God remains God - unseen and invisible.

What is your understanding with the Moses scripture?

Personally, it's a mystery to me.

 

[Comprehend]

It means that God spoke with Moses, but God remains God - unseen and invisible.



Personally, it's a mystery to me.

ok. that just made me curious. Do you believe God has a shape or a boundary to his person?

 

[XAAX]

Are these bible passages contradictory? I have taken them from the KJV of the Bible and to me, the bible seems to be saying two things that cannot both be true. What do you think? I would like input from everyone and not just bible believing Christians..

Now you see him:




Now you don’t:



so how can all of that be true. Has man seen God as the Bible says? or is it impossible to see God, as the Bible says?

For those who believe the Bible is the perfect word of God, how do you explain these scriptures? Which do you choose to believe, and which do you dismiss (if any)?

For those outside of Christianity, what do you think? Contradictory/No?

I have this advice for you comprehend...Unless you are ready to give up believing in the bible, don't start down the road of contradictions. It is riddled with them. I thought I could solve the mystery of all of them when I was a hard core bible thumper myself. What I found instead was the book was so poorly thrown together and then overyly mis-translated that the whole thing is a contradiction. So unless you are ready for that, just keep on excepting the fact that there aren't any...:cover:

 

[Comprehend]

I have this advice for you comprehend...Unless you are ready to give up believing in the bible, don't start down the road of contradictions. It is riddled with them. I thought I could solve the mystery of all of them when I was a hard core bible thumper myself. What I found instead was the book was so poorly thrown together and then overyly mis-translated that the whole thing is a contradiction. So unless you are ready for that, just keep on excepting the fact that there aren't any...:cover:

I am already quite familiar with the bible and it's contradictions, but I certainly do not think the "whole thing is a contradiction." The bible is a wonderful book of scripture and to say the entire thing is one big contradiction is just silly and obviously wrong. It's errors are incredibly few for a book of that age and size. The world owes the Jews and the Catholic church an enormous debt of gratitute for the care they took in preserving the integrity of the Bible. It is nothing short of a miracle that we have the Bible in the condition that it is in.

The 8th Article of Faith for LDS reads:
8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
This LDS doctrine recognizes that the Bible has errors in it. My purpose in this thread was to learn what others believed because I enjoy learing how different people understand things. It helps me to understand other religions, which I really like to do.

PS. I don't know how one might overly mis-translate anything. wouldn't any mistranslation be too much?
... and I think you mean accepting. excepting is something else...

 

[SoyLeche]

I have this advice for you comprehend...Unless you are ready to give up believing that the bible is inerrent, don't start down the road of contradictions.

I fixed your post

 

[Hacker]

This LDS doctrine recognizes that the Bible has errors in it.

How are Mormon's able to accuratelty interpret these errors without question, especially without the influence of God?

 

[SoyLeche]

How are Mormon's able to accuratelty interpret these errors without question? With the influence of God.

I fixed your post.

Although I wouldn't say it is entirely without question. Having other scriptures to cross-refference with helps too.

 

[Hacker]

I fixed your post.

Although I wouldn't say it is entirely without question. Having other scriptures to cross-refference with helps too.

What, lol?