Are These Grounds for Legalizing Pedophilia?

[Saint Frankenstein]

but a lot of them seem to become rapists or watch child porn, which is rape.

You know that child porn is technically anything from kids in bathing suits to full-on penetrative sex?

COPINE scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So someone getting busted with child porn may have been hoarding pictures and videos of naked kids. It doesn't mean images of them getting penetrated, necessarily.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No kidding. It's so taboo and there's so much public hysteria around it, anybody who has a "thing" for kids but is otherwise completely normal is never going to admit to it in our society.

Exactly. That's why we need to work on reducing stigma to make it easier to reach those people for support. Leaving a person to suffer in silence makes their chance of breaking the law greater. We need to make it easier for people to talk about it in a non-judgmental way.

 

[Alceste]

Exactly. That's why we need to work on reducing stigma to make it easier to reach those people for support. Leaving a person to suffer in silence makes their chance of breaking the law greater. We need to make it easier for people to talk about it in a non-judgmental way.

I totally agree. Being a pedophile must really, really suck. I feel nothing but compassion for the poor b-tards, while at the same time feeling none for rapists of any sexual proclivity.

 

[dawny0826]

No, they are two different things.

Both share predatory traits. A rapist and a pedophile, even if both do not act upon their urges, may share common psychological traits.

No one is arguing for legalizing sex with children here.

Understood. But, you've stated that you view pedophilia as a natural orientation. Natural or not, I could never view pedophilia in the way that I do homosexuality or transsexualism.

I'm not interested in nurturing an environment and society, where such mindset is ever encouraged, whether people act upon their natural inclinations or not.

I don't lack sensitivity for unfair stigmas, but, I would never be able to understand why someone could be "proud" of being a pedophile.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Both share predatory traits. A rapist and a pedophile, even if both do not act upon their urges, may share common psychological traits.

No, they don't. If you're going to use such vague language, then you could say that almost everyone has psychological traits in common with rapists. You're going to have to be specific.

Understood. But, you've stated that you view pedophilia as a natural orientation. Natural or not, I could never view pedophilia in the way that I do homosexuality or transsexualism.

So? I view zoophilia and necrophilia as natural inclinations, too. They are just variations of sexual behavior found in the human animal.

Transsexualism isn't a sexual orientation.

I'm not interested in nurturing an environment and society, where such mindset is ever encouraged, whether people act upon their natural inclinations or not.

Once again - no one is discussing making sex with young children permissible.

I do think we should encourage people to come to terms with their attractions and to seek support for them. When a person has an "abnormal" sexual desire, it is imperative that they seek non-judgmental support to faciliatate their mental health and, if their desires are illegal to act upon, help them them stay within the realm of legality. Demonizing people is not a help at all! Just talking to someone who will not judge you is a huge relief and cuts down on stress.

 

[dawny0826]

No, they don't. If you're going to use such vague language, then you could say that almost everyone has psychological traits in common with rapists. You're going to have to be specific.

A rapist and a pedophile may have very different psychological concerns, but, if they've acted criminally, this type of behavior usually stems from anti-social personality type disorder and/or sociopathic disorder.

And that's what the pedophile and the rapist would probably share as a common thread, if they've acted upon such inclinations.

Additionally, as I've mentioned to you, personality type is incredibly important to consider with any patient along with the mental, emotional and intellectual map of that person and their own history and influences.

So? I view zoophilia and necrophilia as natural inclinations, too. They are just variations of sexual behavior found in the human animal.

And they too are inclinations looked at differently from a psychological lens. That which is natural is not necessarily healthy.

Transsexualism isn't a sexual orientation.

Yes. But, I would hope that you understood what I was trying to convey there, anyway...

Once again - no one is discussing making sex with young children permissible.

For the second time...understood. But, until that negative connotation is detached from pedophilia, it's going to be hard to have such discussions without people making such associations.

And it doesn't matter what we think here on this thread. There are those who would and do justify deplorable behavior.

I do think we should encourage people to come to terms with their attractions and to seek support for them. When a person has an "abnormal" sexual desire, it is imperative that they seek non-judgmental support to faciliatate their mental health and, if their desires are illegal to act upon, help them them stay within the realm of legality. Demonizing people is not a help at all! Just talking to someone who will not judge you is a huge relief and cuts down on stress.

Absolutely agree.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Me neither. My mother in law is a psychoanalyst. She sees people who are sexually attracted to children but do not act on it all the time. They are the majority.

You can't really get statistics on who is sexually attracted to children. Who is going to say yes to a question like that, except maybe to their psychoanalyst?

Interesting discussion to read along with.
This raised a couple of thoughts in my head.

1) What did you mean by 'children'? (just in simple terms)
Pre-pubescent, or under 18's or...

2) Dependent on the answer to 1, I'd find it hard to imagine a majority of people are sexually attracted to children. But then I was re-reading your comment and thought maybe it meant a majority of people who are attracted to children don't act on it?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I totally agree. Being a pedophile must really, really suck. I feel nothing but compassion for the poor b-tards, while at the same time feeling none for rapists of any sexual proclivity.

Not me. I'd happily drown them.
I would readily admit that this is neither fair, nor productive, nor consistent with my beliefs in similar situations with other crimes. Perhaps I'll be more enlightened at some point (and I'm speaking honestly hear, not sarcastically) but right now I wouldn't shed a tear.

I suspect my attitude is a result of being a teacher, and feeling protective of kids, and then being a parent. It's certainly not a rational position.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Exactly. That's why we need to work on reducing stigma to make it easier to reach those people for support. Leaving a person to suffer in silence makes their chance of breaking the law greater. We need to make it easier for people to talk about it in a non-judgmental way.

Paradoxically, I completely agree with this. Any pro-active assistance we can give people with these proclivities to avoid a situation where they offend is absolutely worth it. Don't ask me to logically pair off my comments above with my more rational belief in this, since it's different parts of my brain working.

*sighs*

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Oh, stop apologizing. Your story is far more interesting than a debate where
no one disagrees. Anyway, your situation seems more difficult than mine.

Maybe. I think the mistake I made was getting into the situation in the first place, since there were more effective and appropriate means for the situation to be dealt with.

But it was a long time ago, and it's hard to judge 23 year old me by 39 year old me's worldview.

Suffice to say getting the line right between protection of individual rights, and protection of children is bloody tricky. I respect greatly people who work in these areas, although my view of them wasn't always positive when I was more involved in working with children. Just a tough, tough area to be involved in, and generally no 'right' answer.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

A rapist and a pedophile may have very different psychological concerns, but, if they've acted criminally, this type of behavior usually stems from anti-social personality type disorder and/or sociopathic disorder.

And that's what the pedophile and the rapist would probably share as a common thread, if they've acted upon such inclinations.

I find it rather hard to believe that a pedophile who is sexually and romantically attracted to a child and then molests this child has ASPD or is sociopathic. I know most people would not want to, but put yourself in their shoes. They love children. I mean, actually love children. They have romantic fantasies about children. They fall in love just as you would fall into love with an adult. They have to strongly struggle against their urge to act on this feeling they have for the child. The ones who fail in that, I think it is better to think of them as people who have let their passions get the best of them. Yes, they are now criminals under the law but they still do not have the same psychology as a rapist.

And they too are inclinations looked at differently from a psychological lens. That which is natural is not necessarily healthy.

What needs to be asked is if having those desires alone is in of itself unhealthy. Much of the distress that comes from having those desires is due to them being extremely taboo and condemned in the wider society. So this drives the people who have them into isolation. Then sometimes they get mixed up into the criminal underground because that's the only place where their desires are being validated and they can feel "normal". So we need to change how we deal with these issues before those people fall through the cracks.

For the second time...understood. But, until that negative connotation is detached from pedophilia, it's going to be hard to have such discussions without people making such associations.

Well, that's why there's people trying to change how these things are handled.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Paradoxically, I completely agree with this. Any pro-active assistance we can give people with these proclivities to avoid a situation where they offend is absolutely worth it. Don't ask me to logically pair off my comments above with my more rational belief in this, since it's different parts of my brain working.

*sighs*

I've known people who were molested and raped.

 

[dawny0826]

I find it rather hard to believe that a pedophile who is sexually and romantically attracted to a child and then molests this child has ASPD or is sociopathic. I know most people would not want to, but put yourself in their shoes. They love children. I mean, actually love children. They have romantic fantasies about children. They fall in love just as you would fall into love with an adult. They have to strongly struggle against their urge to act on this feeling they have for the child. The ones who fail in that, I think it is better to think of them as people who have let their passions get the best of them. Yes, they are now criminals under the law but they still do not have the same psychology as a rapist.

It's the sociopathic trait that patients tend to posess that allow them the ability to do what a healthy person could not do.

Not all pedophiles view children in the lens that you claim they do. This isn't a one size fits all label from a psychological perspective. There are pedophiles who are predatory as well.

I'm not speaking in blanket label terms, as I know that which is involved in evaluating a patient and the dimensions to mental health. Though many pedophiles may not share the same psychology as a rapist, SOME do, particularly, if we're comparing two people who have victimized another person.

I happen to agree with you, that there is a difference between those who have inclinations and those who act upon inclinations. And pedophile and a rapist may not struggle from the same psychological issues. However, I have to acknowledge the overlap that exists in comparison, when you're evaluating specific personality types.

What needs to be asked is if having those desires alone is in of itself unhealthy. Much of the distress that comes from having those desires is due to them being extremely taboo and condemned in the wider society. So this drives the people who have them into isolation. Then sometimes they get mixed up into the criminal underground because that's the only place where their desires are being validated and they can feel "normal". So we need to change how we deal with these issues before those people fall through the cracks.

I would say, probably almost always unhealthy, when society cannot yield a "norma"l avenue to fulfill desires without negative stigmatization.

How can necrophiliacs be provided "normal" avenues to fulfill their desires? How can we expect society to be sensitive to such "issues"? You can raise awareness and encourage compassion, I suppose, but, how do you detach the negative connotation?

I suppose it's also important to evaluate the manner by which people express dissatisfaction and distrust. People should be able to openly express and share. I agree. But, I can't agree that it's realistic to expect acceptance for certain behavior.

Well, that's why there's people trying to change how these things are handled.

I don't suspect such change to come about easily.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

If the overwhelming weight of scientific evidence indicated that pedophilia were an inheritable sexual orientation, like heterosexuality, would you favor legalizing it on those grounds alone? Why or why not?

Um, no, because whether it is inheritable or not has absolutely nothing to do with what is wrong with it. Or would victims of child molestation/abuse somehow be less traumatized by knowing that the person harming them couldn't help it? Would the power disparity between children and adults somehow disappear? No? Then it wouldn't seem to change anything.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

I find it rather hard to believe that a pedophile who is sexually and romantically attracted to a child and then molests this child has ASPD or is sociopathic. I know most people would not want to, but put yourself in their shoes. They love children. I mean, actually love children. They have romantic fantasies about children. They fall in love just as you would fall into love with an adult. They have to strongly struggle against their urge to act on this feeling they have for the child. The ones who fail in that, I think it is better to think of them as people who have let their passions get the best of them. Yes, they are now criminals under the law but they still do not have the same psychology as a rapist.

Um, why would that make them different from a rapist? Your description of pedophiles here seems perfectly applicable to many rapists.

 

[Alceste]

Interesting discussion to read along with.
This raised a couple of thoughts in my head.

1) What did you mean by 'children'? (just in simple terms)
Pre-pubescent, or under 18's or...

2) Dependent on the answer to 1, I'd find it hard to imagine a majority of people are sexually attracted to children. But then I was re-reading your comment and thought maybe it meant a majority of people who are attracted to children don't act on it?

Sorry, I communicated that badly. I meant the majority of pedophiles never act on their attraction to children, according to my mother-in-law. Not that the majority of people are sexually attracted to children.

Really, it's pretty irrational to assume pedophiles are any worse at controlling inappropriate sexual impulses than any other category of people.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Um, why would that make them different from a rapist? Your description of pedophiles here seems perfectly applicable to many rapists.

A rapist doesn't rape because they're necessarily attracted to the victim on an emotional level. Rape is a form of domination.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's the sociopathic trait that patients tend to posess that allow them the ability to do what a healthy person could not do.

Not all pedophiles view children in the lens that you claim they do. This isn't a one size fits all label from a psychological perspective. There are pedophiles who are predatory as well.

I'm not speaking in blanket label terms, as I know that which is involved in evaluating a patient and the dimensions to mental health. Though many pedophiles may not share the same psychology as a rapist, SOME do, particularly, if we're comparing two people who have victimized another person.

I happen to agree with you, that there is a difference between those who have inclinations and those who act upon inclinations. And pedophile and a rapist may not struggle from the same psychological issues. However, I have to acknowledge the overlap that exists in comparison, when you're evaluating specific personality types.

My point is simply that the two are different. Pedophilia and rape are two different things and need to be considered separately, the way we consider rape of adults separately from general adult sexuality.

To put it another way: A pedophile may also be a rapist, but does not mean all pedophiles are also rapists.

I would say, probably almost always unhealthy, when society cannot yield a "norma"l avenue to fulfill desires without negative stigmatization.

I would say that the social scorn for people with those desires is an even bigger cause of distress than not being able to fulfill said desires.

How can necrophiliacs be provided "normal" avenues to fulfill their desires? How can we expect society to be sensitive to such "issues"? You can raise awareness and encourage compassion, I suppose, but, how do you detach the negative connotation?

Allow those who have this attractions to speak for themselves. The problem here is that those people are dehumanized.

I suppose it's also important to evaluate the manner by which people express dissatisfaction and distrust. People should be able to openly express and share. I agree. But, I can't agree that it's realistic to expect acceptance for certain behavior.

I think that eventually culture will change as understanding of such things mature. But I don't know.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

A rapist doesn't rape because they're necessarily attracted to the victim on an emotional level. Rape is a form of domination.

And similarly for child molestation. I'd say that in this respect, they're extremely similar. Also, given the inherent power disparity between adults and children, and the inability of children to reasonably consent to sexual relations, virtually all instances of child molestation are instances of rape as well.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And similarly for child molestation. I'd say that in this respect, they're extremely similar. Also, given the inherent power disparity between adults and children, and the inability of children to reasonably consent to sexual relations, virtually all instances of child molestation are instances of rape as well.

You're ignoring motivation.