Are u going to leave USA now?

[sojourner]

Weighing the texts? I've never heard of it. Can't find any examples, either. Can you show me one so we can dissect it?

Matthew 5:38ff

 

[viole]

The revelation of God comes in stages, seasons perhaps. 2.0 as you say it is on the horizon. There's a preview trailer in Revelation for your perusal.

In this case there will never be a Bible V2.0. Even if your God existed, Satan will never be so stupid to act as described and seal his own demise

I don't know. I haven't looked, really. I don't think it's a cause that would lend any fruit; people do what people do.

My impression is that this cause is not lending many fruits, either.

To people in certain cases, I think so. Trust me, I think many make a far bigger deal of the same-sex sin than other sins, which leads only to questions like this. Religion or not, it's a progressive thing in the world in the last few decades, and is socially as shock factor to many. The religious took it just as hard if not harder, I suppose.

I suppose too.

Are you familiar with Christ's plea in the garden of Gethsemane? It's more useful in many cases to pray to be aligned with God's will, than it is to ask it to change.

When you pray for rain, are you asking for the weather report or are you explicetely asking to make it rain ASAP?

What simple information, though? Physical, mundane, information you would go to the throne room of the Lord for? Try google first?

A simple information that would stop Christians from debating this issues and making them look funny. Some think that it is salvation relevant, others, like Craig, think that it is a disgrace to believe in a young earth.

On the other hand, if it was a matter of the spirit, you'll likely have a better experience. If you're a mathematician, I wouldn't come to you to fix my car, would I?

Nope. i break everything that has mechanical parts. Just by looking at it, lol. I even call the emergency highway patrol when I have a flat tyre.

I wasn't saying so out of judgment or rebuke, it was a rhetorical question to demonstrate why you might place blame on God first, and not the world, who clearly discounts African by and large? If we invested in Africa like we invest in our own selfish entertainment, would Africa be the constant source of examples people use to discredit God?

Might work for Africa, less so for earthquakes and cancer. Unless God wants to let earthquakes and cancerous cells to exercise their free will, too.

Well, therein lies a big problem, no? So here we have a calvinist ideal; were you ever saved? Did you ever believe? How can you once believe, and then no longer believe, if you actually believed to begin with? If you had, you would still believe?

I was an evangelical young earther. Born again and all. According to all Christians in my church I was saved. So, either I am unsaved now or I am still saved. In case the former, it is a good idea to hold judgement before declaring anyone saved while she is still alive.

If some pray and they say it works, does it actually work for them, or are they just overly positive?

Confirmation bias, I suppose. We remember only the hits and not the misses.

Mechanically, you may be correct on some or most levels, but possibly not all. Who can say for sure?

There is very little we can say for sure. Some mathematical propositions and thats it. I am not even dead sure than I am not a brain in a vet imagining to write to a Christian.

However, if it gives a mentally or spiritually positive feedback, that results in a measurable increase in... any attribute, is it not sound? If I pray before a test, and am thus more confident, and perform better than if I had not prayed, is that not useful? Sure you might argue it's rooted in psychology, but who cares if I passed the test?

Sure. A friend of mine kicks the wall with his foot exactly 11 times every morning. When he forgets it or miscounts the kicks, then his day is miserable, apparently. And I believe that his belief can affect his confidence during the whole day. A self validating belief, so to speak. But this is psychology, as you said, not metaphysical evidence that praying or kicking walls can influence the world.

I think it would be arrogant firstly to assume prayer does or does not work. At the very least it is arrogant to presume you can see or know the outcome, whatever it may be. For example, I might recall to you that when I pray for others, my prayers "work" better, but it isn't about working or not working, so much as it is the fact I'm talking to God about His people, and we're all more connected because of it. The beauty of prayer may not be in outcomes of the physical world, but outcomes of the spirit realm.

It is as arrogant as rejecting ESP or alien abductions. Prayers effectivity is an empirical claim that can be validated with empirical methods. I tried to ask once for a reduction of my health insurance fee, by positing that as a devout Christian I pray everyday for my health. It did not work. And if it does not work with health insurerers statistical accountants, then it does not work in general

What if I told you that I was going to pray for you every single day, for the rest of the month? Would you think about that each day you woke up? Would it impact you in some way, knowing somewhere, a stranger cares so much about your day and what happens to you, to stop all he is doing in his own busy life, to lift you up in the presence of God?

I would think that it is very sweet. I appreciate it when believers pray for me. A Hindu friend of mine did the same last year.

Alas, that is my emotional response, and I never use emotions to analyse metaphysical claims. Ever. Rationally, I would think you are losing your time. Not only because there is no God, but because I think that God, or Vishnu, would not extend favors to unbelievers who happen to know a nice believer that prays for them.

I suppose you ask a fundamental question about faith?

Probably.

Ciao

- viole

 

[catch22]

In this case there will never be a Bible V2.0. Even if your God existed, Satan will never be so stupid to act as described and seal his own demise

Why not? Pride is blinding. He doesn't believe it will end the way it does or will, yet it does. Why else be so foolish to try to tempt Christ Himself?

My impression is that this cause is not lending many fruits, either.

Perhaps. I guess I have hope.

When you pray for rain, are you asking for the weather report or are you explicetely asking to make it rain ASAP?

I generally ask God to bless us with rain.

A simple information that would stop Christians from debating this issues and making them look funny. Some think that it is salvation relevant, others, like Craig, think that it is a disgrace to believe in a young earth.

I can see it looks silly to some, okay. But to us it's important, not for us, but for you, them, and whomever.

Nope. i break everything that has mechanical parts. Just by looking at it, lol. I even call the emergency highway patrol when I have a flat tyre.

James 4 speaks to this.

Might work for Africa, less so for earthquakes and cancer. Unless God wants to let earthquakes and cancerous cells to exercise their free will, too.

Unrealistic expectations are something many people have concerning such things, this is a huge point for non-believers. You have Christ. What more do you need? We are in the world, it is a short season in eternity.

I was an evangelical young earther. Born again and all. According to all Christians in my church I was saved. So, either I am unsaved now or I am still saved. In case the former, it is a good idea to hold judgement before declaring anyone saved while she is still alive.

Alas, you do not know the day or hour of your demise. If you deny Christ in your heart, where is your salvation? This is what is written. Just above you said "my" God is not real. I'm not sure what else to say. I do not judge, per se, I just ask so you'll consider.

Confirmation bias, I suppose. We remember only the hits and not the misses.

Not so much. I have a laundry list of things that have not come to pass, and I remember every one of them.

Sure. A friend of mine kicks the wall with his foot exactly 11 times every morning. When he forgets it or miscounts the kicks, then his day is miserable, apparently. And I believe that his belief can affect his confidence during the whole day. A self validating belief, so to speak. But this is psychology, as you said, not metaphysical evidence that praying or kicking walls can influence the world.

It is as arrogant as rejecting ESP or alien abductions. Prayers effectivity is an empirical claim that can be validated with empirical methods. I tried to ask once for a reduction of my health insurance fee, by positing that as a devout Christian I pray everyday for my health. It did not work. And if it does not work with health insurerers statistical accountants, then it does not work in general

Either all believers are suffering from some variation of OCD, or maybe it works. (I do have mild OCD/PTSD, for what it's worth heh)

All jesting aside, it seems a silly way to validate prayer, through an insurance agent...

I would think that it is very sweet. I appreciate it when believers pray for me. A Hindu friend of mine did the same last year.

Alas, that is my emotional response, and I never use emotions to analyse metaphysical claims. Ever. Rationally, I would think you are losing your time. Not only because there is no God, but because I think that God, or Vishnu, would not extend favors to unbelievers who happen to know a nice believer that prays for them.

 

[catch22]

Matthew 5:38ff

Let's have the whole quote:

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Jesus is referencing Exodus 21 here, let's have that text, too:

22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

So, Exodus lays out law for a state; judges or those in authority use these laws to levy judgment upon the accused. In the event of minor injury, the husband and judges decide, more or less, among themselves the charge to impose. If serious harm happens, they are to impose equal repayment which is typical for vengeance as described, eye for eye, tooth for tooth -- it's a level of equality for repayment for damages. This is just (if not radical, because oft times, punishments far exceeded the nature of the crime -- this demands equality).

Does Jesus invalidate this? He doesn't. Not at all, He doesn't say "don't follow that anymore it's not valid, do this this instead." No, what Christ does is call those listening, calling individuals, to go above and beyond this state practice. There is no wrong in them for simply following it, but Jesus is conveying a principle than that which is common. Fair is fair, law is law, all these things remain. He doesn't revoke, invalidate, or change His mind about this law.

This is encouragement. Not reconsidering, not changing, not reinventing. It's not weighing anything. It's a higher calling, above the basis of this typical practice. He does the same thing in the Beautitudes. None of this circumvents, denies, or goes against the law. It's encouraging individuals to not seek repayment or vengeance, to not hold people to the law, and instead, go one further.

Vengeance is for the Lord, after all. This law serves to keep peace in a state. For individuals, we could do better.

So let's have another one. I don't understand this weighing text concept, still.

 

[viole]

Why not? Pride is blinding. He doesn't believe it will end the way it does or will, yet it does. Why else be so foolish to try to tempt Christ Himself?

Well, then we can have only two possible logical explanations. Either is Satan intellectually handycapped, or whomever wrote the Bible did not pay attention to logic. I am not sure what is more plausible

Perhaps. I guess I have hope.

Sure. You have faith. Same thing basically, at least according to the Bible.

I generally ask God to bless us with rain.

Which is not exactly equivalent to aligning with His will, or Master Plan.

I can see it looks silly to some, okay. But to us it's important, not for us, but for you, them, and whomever.

Ok.

James 4 speaks to this.

I wonder where. No mention of flat tyres there

Unrealistic expectations are something many people have concerning such things, this is a huge point for non-believers. You have Christ. What more do you need? We are in the world, it is a short season in eternity.

What more do I need? What about evidence that I have indeed Christ? Apart from hope in things that are unseen, we do not have a lot, do we?

Alas, you do not know the day or hour of your demise. If you deny Christ in your heart, where is your salvation? This is what is written. Just above you said "my" God is not real. I'm not sure what else to say. I do not judge, per se, I just ask so you'll consider.

Mmh, that was not my point. My point was: were those Christians right when they declared that I was saved? If not, how can you trust the claims concerning anyone to be saved while she still has an operational brain that might cause her to reconsider?

Not so much. I have a laundry list of things that have not come to pass, and I remember every one of them.

Ok.

Either all believers are suffering from some variation of OCD, or maybe it works. (I do have mild OCD/PTSD, for what it's worth heh)

With "all believers" do you include believers in other, very different, Gods?

All jesting aside, it seems a silly way to validate prayer, through an insurance agent...

You are not swiss. You cannot imagine how much health care costs here and what insureres would do to get people that are provably safer from sickness. If prayer worked, that would be a huge business.

Fact is: atheists pay considerably less taxes than Christians here, so we can at least say that they do not cost more, but less. Despite the alleged effectivity of praying.

Ciao

- viole

 

[catch22]

Well, then we can have only two possible logical explanations. Either is Satan intellectually handycapped, or whomever wrote the Bible did not pay attention to logic. I am not sure what is more plausible

[Edit: missed this one]. Well no, satan is cunning and powerful. He was, afterall, a high angel of the Lord. But pride blinds.

All of us know this, whether we can admit it or not. The very effort he makes in knowing the outcome likely seals the demise.

I work in casino gaming. Everyone knows the house wins. But people come and make donations everyday, regardless. They believe they'll get lucky, I suppose?

Which is not exactly equivalent to aligning with His will, or Master Plan.

As in the Lord's prayer in the garden, if it is His will. Right, so why pray if the outcome is determined? Relationship. The bible encourages us to pray for all things, in all supplication... who's to say what my impact is. I don't think about it that way. I just talk to God.

I wonder where. No mention of flat tyres there

Hopefully you know I was following up on the previous comment about google, and if I should bring my car to a mathematics person for my car to be fixed... So then if you go to the throne room of God in prayer, be there for the right reasons.

What more do I need? What about evidence that I have indeed Christ? Apart from hope in things that are unseen, We dot have a lot, do we?

Depends on what your standard of evidence is. The New Testament is sufficient evidence for me. It isn't for many people. In those cases, in my experience, there is no such sufficient evidence. The sad part is, these people are written about in particular, for example, in Revelation.

Mmh, that was my point. My point was: were those Christians right when they declared that I was saved? If not, how can you trust the claims concerning anyone to be saved while she still has an operational brain that might cause her to reconsider?

If they're the ones who perform gay marriages in church, thinking they are doing God's work, it's very possible they weren't? Ultimately, no human can really tell you that, and I won't sit here and say who is a real Christian and who isn't, I'm in no position to wager that (plus I try to avoid No True Scotsman fallacies lol). My position is no human can say or not say. My position is you will know, in your heart. You will have a confirmation with God, a personal experience perhaps, for which to know.

I think we both know the answer at this point, concerning you? I do hope your heart can change in this regard. It is very likely you had this in your previous walk, and are just on a long duration back slide. I can't say. I wish I knew you better, but I don't.

With "all believers" do you include believers in other, very different, Gods?

I was talking specifically about prayer to God. On the other hand, I do know of other variations of tribute, or prayer if you will, to lesser "gods" (not gods, really, but spiritual beings) and it can and does work. It's frightening, evil, and not something to be approached. So let us not speak about it.

You are not swiss. You cannot imagine how much health care costs here and what insureres would do to get people that are provably safer from sickness. If prayer worked, that would be a huge business.

Fact is: atheists pay considerably less taxes than Christians here, so we can at least say that they do not cost more, but less. Despite the alleged effectivity of praying.

Are you misled to believe that following God is a lucrative path, in terms of the world? I do think I was clear earlier when I said it is very hard, very difficult, and by no means lucrative in your worldly existence, in terms of worldly gain. It's quite often the opposite.

Do you not know you will be persecuted and put to death, for proclaiming the name of Christ? Store up your treasures in heaven, etc? Jesus said these things.

The atheists will get their due reward, here in the world, so they will be without excuse at the Throne. Of this I have intimate knowledge, I witness to it daily in my personal struggles.

 

[sojourner]

Let's have the whole quote:



Jesus is referencing Exodus 21 here, let's have that text, too:



So, Exodus lays out law for a state; judges or those in authority use these laws to levy judgment upon the accused. In the event of minor injury, the husband and judges decide, more or less, among themselves the charge to impose. If serious harm happens, they are to impose equal repayment which is typical for vengeance as described, eye for eye, tooth for tooth -- it's a level of equality for repayment for damages. This is just (if not radical, because oft times, punishments far exceeded the nature of the crime -- this demands equality).

Does Jesus invalidate this? He doesn't. Not at all, He doesn't say "don't follow that anymore it's not valid, do this this instead." No, what Christ does is call those listening, calling individuals, to go above and beyond this state practice. There is no wrong in them for simply following it, but Jesus is conveying a principle than that which is common. Fair is fair, law is law, all these things remain. He doesn't revoke, invalidate, or change His mind about this law.

This is encouragement. Not reconsidering, not changing, not reinventing. It's not weighing anything. It's a higher calling, above the basis of this typical practice. He does the same thing in the Beautitudes. None of this circumvents, denies, or goes against the law. It's encouraging individuals to not seek repayment or vengeance, to not hold people to the law, and instead, go one further.

Vengeance is for the Lord, after all. This law serves to keep peace in a state. For individuals, we could do better.

So let's have another one. I don't understand this weighing text concept, still.

Let me spell it out for you. the Law says that one has to go so far. Jesus weighs that against current needs, and says that current needs outweigh the limits of the Law. That's "weighing the text." One of the most poignant examples, I think, is where Jesus states that the Sabbath was made for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath. The Sabbath text states that no work may be done. Jesus weighs that against current needs and determines that the need outweighs the parameters of the text.

I say that current needs outweigh the parameters of the biblical texts against homosexual acts.

 

[catch22]

Let me spell it out for you. the Law says that one has to go so far. Jesus weighs that against current needs, and says that current needs outweigh the limits of the Law. That's "weighing the text." One of the most poignant examples, I think, is where Jesus states that the Sabbath was made for humanity, not humanity for the Sabbath. The Sabbath text states that no work may be done. Jesus weighs that against current needs and determines that the need outweighs the parameters of the text.

The Pharisees and others had enforced the sabbath laws to the point where the law came before everything, good, rest, peace, and God. They used it as a means to persecute and harm, not give rest and peace. The intention and the meaning of the sabbath was forgotten. The Pharisees perverted God's law to a point where one might argue they idolized it over the Lord Himself.

Jesus made the Sabbath as a day of rest, for the GOOD of people, to protect them -- not incriminate them. This is one of the few times Jesus shows anger (Mark 3), so He is quite passionate about it.

Weighing needs? What are you talking about? He reminds and teaches the original purpose, and declares His righteous authority over it. He doesn't ALTER the meaning, He RESTORES it.

I say that current needs outweigh the parameters of the biblical texts against homosexual acts.

You have no such authority. You again glorify sin. Did Jesus do GOOD or BAD when He pointed out the mistakes of the Pharisees and others whom put the law ahead of good. Did He endorse sin? You think what you're saying is good, but it isn't. What would Jesus say to homosexuals in this era if He were alive now? Almost assuredly, "...neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." Never would you hear the Lord go back on the law He made. No, He would not put them to death nor shame them. He would call them to righteousness via repentance, because that's what Jesus always did. His life, death, and resurrection was atonement for sin so many could be saved. He wants as many to be saved as possible.

There's no weighing here, you are misrepresenting the gospels, either out of maliciousness or ignorance; both inexcusable.

You say I condemn these people by pointing out the sin, pointing toward repentance, and speaking of Jesus Christ and His salvation. Though I disagree with your assertion, if it were the case, then I condemn in the flesh. By manipulating the texts and misrepresenting Christ and truth, you condemn these people to hell.

Matthew 10:28.
Then, as far as you and I are concerned, read Luke 9:5.

 

[sojourner]

Weighing needs? What are you talking about? He reminds and teaches the original purpose, and declares His righteous authority over it. He doesn't ALTER the meaning, He RESTORES it.

The Sabbath law, as written, was quite clear and succinct. Jesus weighed its injunctions against the current need. I don't know what you're talking about: "original purpose." The "original purpose" was to refrain from work. Jesus was advocating doing work. It's that simple.

You have no such authority.

Oh? I'm one ordained with religious authority to interpret the texts to the people. What's your excuse?

You again glorify sin.

You, again, apparently twist the truth.

Did Jesus do GOOD or BAD when He pointed out the mistakes of the Pharisees and others whom put the law ahead of good.

That's what you're doing when you put what's "written" ahead of what people need!! -- You're putting the law ahead of good.

You think what you're saying is good, but it isn't.

You think what you're saying is good, but it isn't.

What would Jesus say to homosexuals in this era if He were alive now?

Jesus' M.O. is to always have compassion and to advocate for the oppressed and disenfranchised. His reaction in the current time would be no different.

Never would you hear the Lord go back on the law He made.

Jesus didn't make the law.

No, He would not put them to death nor shame them. He would call them to righteousness via repentance, because that's what Jesus always did.

You mean, like the way he ignored the transgression of the woman with a flow of blood who touched him? Like he ignored his own transgression of touching the dead? Laws are weighed by Jesus all the time. Jesus calls sin "sin." Jesus never said one stinking word about homosexuality. Don't put words in Jesus' mouth.

His life, death, and resurrection was atonement for sin so many could be saved.

In your opinion.

He wants as many to be saved as possible.

God will save every person.

There's no weighing here, you are misrepresenting the gospels, either out of maliciousness or ignorance; both inexcusable.

Oh, there's misrepresentation going on here -- and judgment -- and condemnation. But it's not coming from me. And it's inexcusable.

You say I condemn these people by pointing out the sin, pointing toward repentance, and speaking of Jesus Christ and His salvation.

Yes. You are. (Although I'm not convinced you're really speaking of Jesus' salvation.)

By manipulating the texts and misrepresenting Christ and truth, you condemn these people to hell.

A bold accusation, based upon nothing more than ignorance and bias.

Matthew 10:28.
Then, as far as you and I are concerned, read Luke 9:5.

Translation: "I can't argue with your logic, so I'm going to throw a mad fit, pick up my marbles and go home." The referenced texts are not cogent in any other capacity to this discussion.

Complicity in the systemic violence of the dehumanization of minorities cannot go unchallenged. Jesus wouldn't have participated in that sort of nonsense. It goes against every spiritual tenet endorsed by God's people. No matter what you believe the texts "say." Please leave the judgment of spiritual condition and the exegesis of religious text to those of us who are qualified and called to do so. As it stands, your posts represent a model that only serve to perpetuate the system and turn people away from wholeness.

 

[viole]

[Edit: missed this one]. Well no, satan is cunning and powerful. He was, afterall, a high angel of the Lord. But pride blinds.

All of us know this, whether we can admit it or not. The very effort he makes in knowing the outcome likely seals the demise.

I work in casino gaming. Everyone knows the house wins. But people come and make donations everyday, regardless. They believe they'll get lucky, I suppose?

Who knows? That would explain why Jesus has been missing in action so long

As in the Lord's prayer in the garden, if it is His will. Right, so why pray if the outcome is determined? Relationship. The bible encourages us to pray for all things, in all supplication... who's to say what my impact is. I don't think about it that way. I just talk to God.

Yes, I see. But a personal relationship should be bi-directional. I doubt it is, for the above mentioned reasons (disagreements among Christians on fundamental stuff).

Hopefully you know I was following up on the previous comment about google, and if I should bring my car to a mathematics person for my car to be fixed... So then if you go to the throne room of God in prayer, be there for the right reasons.

I am not sure I am following, presumably because of my suboptimal English. But I think we can safely skip this part for the rest of the discussion.

Depends on what your standard of evidence is. The New Testament is sufficient evidence for me. It isn't for many people. In those cases, in my experience, there is no such sufficient evidence. The sad part is, these people are written about in particular, for example, in Revelation.

My standard is very simple: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Alas, all religions I know provide no evidence whatsoever, not even sub-standard one. And if I had been the author of Revelation, I would have probably written the same things concerning the fate of people who are calling my clams out.

If they're the ones who perform gay marriages in church, thinking they are doing God's work, it's very possible they weren't? Ultimately, no human can really tell you that, and I won't sit here and say who is a real Christian and who isn't, I'm in no position to wager that (plus I try to avoid No True Scotsman fallacies lol). My position is no human can say or not say. My position is you will know, in your heart. You will have a confirmation with God, a personal experience perhaps, for which to know.

Nope. I was a member of a so-called free church. Very conservative. I would say similar to your southern baptists. They claimed that I was saved. Were they right?

I think we both know the answer at this point, concerning you? I do hope your heart can change in this regard. It is very likely you had this in your previous walk, and are just on a long duration back slide. I can't say. I wish I knew you better, but I don't.

The cognitive processes that led me to disbieve God are probably similar to the ones that led you to disbelieve Santa. It might sound a bit harsh, but pending additional evidence, I do not see any ontological difference between Santa, Allah, Vishnu, the Christian God, homeopathy, abducting aliens, zombie Elvis, spiritual forces, Loch Ness, ESP, universal consciousness, blue fairies, Thor, Apollo, etc. etc.

Therefore, I think we have the same chance to resume our abandoned beliefs.

I was talking specifically about prayer to God. On the other hand, I do know of other variations of tribute, or prayer if you will, to lesser "gods" (not gods, really, but spiritual beings) and it can and does work. It's frightening, evil, and not something to be approached. So let us not speak about it.

I was thinking of things like Allah. My muslim friends claim prayer effectivity, too. Are they deluded?

Are you misled to believe that following God is a lucrative path, in terms of the world? I do think I was clear earlier when I said it is very hard, very difficult, and by no means lucrative in your worldly existence, in terms of worldly gain. It's quite often the opposite.

Well, that is simple arithmetics. If prayer were effective, we should know by now. Objectively. And act accordingly.

Do you not know you will be persecuted and put to death, for proclaiming the name of Christ? Store up your treasures in heaven, etc? Jesus said these things.

Well, again a self fulfilling prophecy. Either my new made up and exclusive religion will fizzle or it will clash with some powerful people who prefer to be worshipped instead of me. Roman emperors were quite sensitive about that, as Jesus probably realized.

And He forgot to mention that many more people will be persecuted and put to death if they doubt Him.

The atheists will get their due reward, here in the world, so they will be without excuse at the Throne. Of this I have intimate knowledge, I witness to it daily in my personal struggles.

Is that a real Throne or a spiritual one? In case of the former: does God sit? Is there gravity in Heaven?

I know you are well meaning, but I have to tell you that any veiled reminders of my eternal destiny in Hell are interpreted by me as clear signs that I am winning an argument

Ciao

- viole

 

[catch22]

Who knows? That would explain why Jesus has been missing in action so long

I don't think He's missing in action. He might not be here as He was during His ministry, in the physical sense, but He is by no means missing.

Yes, I see. But a personal relationship should be bi-directional. I doubt it is, for the above mentioned reasons (disagreements among Christians on fundamental stuff).

Understand your personal expectations. If God is real and created you, He has done a wonderful thing for you. If Christ is real and has given you salvation through His loving sacrifice, then the relationship is weighted far more on His side, than yours.

Yes, bi-directional. Whereas most people assume God is "quiet" or not present, thus He does nothing; the truth is, you aren't participating when He already has done more for the relationship than you ever could.

My standard is very simple: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Alas, all religions I know provide no evidence whatsoever, not even sub-standard one. And if I had been the author of Revelation, I would have probably written the same things concerning the fate of people who are calling my clams out.

This is a very pragmatic and logical way to live, so who can blame you? However, signs are not given, Jesus' life, death and resurrection were a sign. His good works were a sign, and people still didn't believe. The truth is, when you see signs, you will refute them, or disbelieve them. This is a proven truth. The air in your lungs is a sign, but you explain it mundanely in the physical, thinking it is not an act of God. Creation around you is a sign, and to you it's just atoms and materials moving this way and that -- because you can explain it with some science, it can't possibly have been created?

Nope. I was a member of a so-called free church. Very conservative. I would say similar to your southern baptists. They claimed that I was saved. Were they right?

Ask them, not me. They know you, I don't know you. What they say is likely true, but doesn't make it so. Only God knows absolutely. Yet, you know better than they do. Do you say you are saved?

The cognitive processes that led me to disbieve God are probably similar to the ones that led you to disbelieve Santa. It might sound a bit harsh, but pending additional evidence, I do not see any ontological difference between Santa, Allah, Vishnu, the Christian God, homeopathy, abducting aliens, zombie Elvis, spiritual forces, Loch Ness, ESP, universal consciousness, blue fairies, Thor, Apollo, etc. etc.

Therefore, I think we have the same chance to resume our abandoned beliefs.

Fair enough. However, many believe much of those things are real. I don't believe Aliens are living beings from other planets, per se, but I do think they are real in a spiritual sense. All of these things are distractors from truth and exist for varying reasons, most apart of the same conflict.

Then again, sometimes people just make things up. In the case of say, UFOs, there is such a widespread phenom it's possible it's spiritual activity; it's may well be very real, just likely not what people assume it is.

I was thinking of things like Allah. My muslim friends claim prayer effectivity, too. Are they deluded?

Deluded from whom they actually pray to or not, or if the praying works? A mixture of both, maybe. Allah is not God. It is real, but it is not God.

Well, that is simple arithmetics. If prayer were effective, we should know by now. Objectively. And act accordingly.

If it were, what use is faith? Jesus taught often that belief could trump what we consider possibility, or reality. If belief is a key component to faith, that is not seeing yet still believing, then why should God undermine us by providing us irrefutable proof? There is no faith in proof, and quite likely, even with proof you'd still disbelieve, for this reason or that reason...

Well, again a self fulfilling prophecy. Either my new made up and exclusive religion will fizzle or it will clash with some powerful people who prefer to be worshipped instead of me. Roman emperors were quite sensitive about that, as Jesus probably realized.

And He forgot to mention that many more people will be persecuted and put to death if they doubt Him.

For the first part: despite opposition, Christianity now rests at the center of an empire that tried for three centuries to destroy it. Rome could conquer the world, but not Christ. Many nations have similar stories where Christianity is concerned.

For the rest, if you're alluding to things like the Crusades, you are partially right. But men are corruptible, as always, so why hold these to higher standards than say, Adolf Hitler? That said, the Crusades were a response to force initially, not the other way around.

There are religions that call for death to those who disbelieve. Christianity is not one of them, despite the err of some of its "followers" through time.

Is that a real Throne or a spiritual one? In case of the former: does God sit? Is there gravity in Heaven?

Are you saying a spiritual throne isn't "real"? I'm not sure if the "white" throne described in Revelation 20 is a physical or spiritual manifestation, I'd wager to say both, but I can't say for sure. I'm not sure the difference is a point worth arguing. We all will know at some point.

I know you are well meaning, but I have to tell you that any veiled reminders of my eternal destiny in Hell are interpreted by me as clear signs that I am winning an argument

If we are in an argument then I will concede and victory is yours, you need not read into it. I am not veiling destruction or the question of your inevitable outcome. I'm fairly plain in pointing out the implications, aren't I?

 

[viole]

I don't think He's missing in action. He might not be here as He was during His ministry, in the physical sense, but He is by no means missing.

Ok, I'll rephrase: His second coming is missing in action.

Understand your personal expectations. If God is real and created you, He has done a wonderful thing for you. If Christ is real and has given you salvation through His loving sacrifice, then the relationship is weighted far more on His side, than yours.

I would not call that a loving sacrifice. I would not call it a sacrifice at all. He does not seem to have suffered any inconvenience because of that. So, what did He sacrifice, really?

Yes, bi-directional. Whereas most people assume God is "quiet" or not present, thus He does nothing; the truth is, you aren't participating when He already has done more for the relationship than you ever could.

I think it is more plausible to postulate that He is not there. If He were, we would see more agreements among Christians when they talk with Him.

This is a very pragmatic and logical way to live, so who can blame you? However, signs are not given, Jesus' life, death and resurrection were a sign. His good works were a sign, and people still didn't believe. The truth is, when you see signs, you will refute them, or disbelieve them. This is a proven truth. The air in your lungs is a sign, but you explain it mundanely in the physical, thinking it is not an act of God. Creation around you is a sign, and to you it's just atoms and materials moving this way and that -- because you can explain it with some science, it can't possibly have been created?

These are all nice stories in a book, you know. I mean His good works, resurrections and all. I would not confuse them with established facts.

And yes, everything we see can be created. Everything can be a lot of things, I suspect. For what we know, it could even be the product of some galactic overlord alien when it goes to the bathroom. There is simply no evidence that this is the case: neither that it is created nor that it is the biological discard of a big alien.

Ask them, not me. They know you, I don't know you. What they say is likely true, but doesn't make it so. Only God knows absolutely. Yet, you know better than they do. Do you say you are saved?

Nope. There is no such thing as salvation, so it would be meaningless for me to say that I am saved, today. But I was sure I was saved when I was a Christian.

Then again, sometimes people just make things up. In the case of say, UFOs, there is such a widespread phenom it's possible it's spiritual activity; it's may well be very real, just likely not what people assume it is.

It is very unlikely that it is real. For the simple reason that it is extremely unlikely that there is a spiritual reality at all, whatever that would be.

Deluded from whom they actually pray to or not, or if the praying works? A mixture of both, maybe. Allah is not God. It is real, but it is not God.

Can you give me some objective ways to make it obvious to me that prayer works for Christians and not Muslims, despite the fact that they both claim that it is effective?

If it were, what use is faith? Jesus taught often that belief could trump what we consider possibility, or reality. If belief is a key component to faith, that is not seeing yet still believing, then why should God undermine us by providing us irrefutable proof? There is no faith in proof, and quite likely, even with proof you'd still disbelieve, for this reason or that reason...

Faith is holding something true without any evidence that it is, indeed, true. Hardly a virtue. Unless we can call virtuous people who believe in garden fairies, among other things.

For the first part: despite opposition, Christianity now rests at the center of an empire that tried for three centuries to destroy it. Rome could conquer the world, but not Christ. Many nations have similar stories where Christianity is concerned.

If for the center of the Empire you mean Europe, then I am not sure how long Jesus will be around here. He is vanishing.

For the rest, if you're alluding to things like the Crusades, you are partially right. But men are corruptible, as always, so why hold these to higher standards than say, Adolf Hitler? That said, the Crusades were a response to force initially, not the other way around.

I am talking of all the people who got burned for mundane things like whether Jesus owned His robe or not. Or for whether He is a human son, the divine son, no son at all, one two or three entities, or whatever human imagination can think of. From a benevolent prophet that knows things and the future, I would have expected a clear sentence in the NT like: no guys, I do not own this robe. and there is not such a thing as a witch. So do not go around burning yourself out in my name because of what I wear or because some women might look odd to you or because you might disagree on unimportant theological details.

Are you saying a spiritual throne isn't "real"? I'm not sure if the "white" throne described in Revelation 20 is a physical or spiritual manifestation, I'd wager to say both, but I can't say for sure. I'm not sure the difference is a point worth arguing. We all will know at some point.

I cannot imagine a spiritual throne. If it is really white, then we could deduce that it reflects all electromagnetic radiation wavelengths, which is difficult for a spiritual thing. So, it must be physical. Which would entail that God really sits and has, therefore, a...how shall I call it? A Rear side (capital Rear, of course). And that there is gravity in Heaven. We already knew that. We also know there is something like an atmosphere. If there was no gravity nor atmosphere, then it would be useless for angels to have wings. Don't you think?

If we are in an argument then I will concede and victory is yours, you need not read into it. I am not veiling destruction or the question of your inevitable outcome. I'm fairly plain in pointing out the implications, aren't I?

Thanks. But please consider that it scares me as much as not getting any presents from Santa this year

Ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

Fortunately, the gay agenda is winning the public relations & legal wars.

I believe if a lie is repeated often enough most people will buy it. That worked for Obama.

 

[Muffled]

You know what happened next, right?

Maybe it will become legal to shoot people in movie theatres, lol. After all a person has a right to be insane doesn't he?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I believe if a lie is repeated often enough most people will buy it. That worked for Obama.

Also seemed to work for practically all the world's religions.

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe if a lie is repeated often enough most people will buy it. That worked for Obama.

I prefer the gay agenda (eg, marriage, tolerance)
to the Obama (eg, spend, spend, spend, vacation, spend, police state, spend) agenda though.

 

[Muffled]

I prefer the gay agenda (eg, marriage, tolerance)
to the Obama (eg, spend, spend, spend, vacation, spend, police state, spend) agenda though.

I believe thos in favor of homosexuality on here have been intolerant and hateful. I also believe same sex marriage isn't really marriage. If it is now called that legally then it has lost the meaning of marriage to me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe it will become legal to shoot people in movie theatres, lol. After all a person has a right to be insane doesn't he?

I love that movie.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe thos in favor of homosexuality on here have been intolerant and hateful. I also believe same sex marriage isn't really marriage. If it is now called that legally then it has lost the meaning of marriage to me.

So, how is it intolerant and hateful to say that your religious doctrine has no business dictating the lives of others, yet it isn't intolerant to say "same sex marriage isn't really marriage," because, according to your, doing so makes it so marriage has lost its meaning?

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe thos in favor of homosexuality on here have been intolerant and hateful.

There is that element among us, but they are a minority.
It's like those vocal abusive anti-abortion protesters.....I don't judge the whole by those few.

I also believe same sex marriage isn't really marriage. If it is now called that legally then it has lost the meaning of marriage to me.

It seems precisely marriage....
- They pay the marriage penalty tax on dual incomes.
- They're in love.
- They raise families.
- They fight over money.
- They grow old together.....unless they get divorced.