Of course I focussed on religion. This thread is about whether or not we would be better off without certain religious beliefs. If this thread had been about something else, such as the geopolitical pragmatism of the ruling class, I would have focussed on that. But no, it's about whether or not we're better off without a belief in God.
Sure and you pointed the religious animosity between Jews and Muslims, and I feel compelled to point the lack of proportions of this notion. I dont know, maybe I am the mythological target of many Imams and even hadiths, but I have no religious motivation for animosity with Muslims, the way I interpret Jewish tradition doesnt make followers of the other Abrahamic faiths my arch nemesis.
I have no doubt that the leaders of nations are mainly concerned with increasing their own power, wealth and influence regardless of their respective religious beliefs. But how do they talk the ordinary people who have to do all the killing and dying to advance these goals into it? Religion, like it or not, is one of the main offenders.
No Israeli PM has ever asked me to kill in the name of the prophets of Israel :areyoucra
And not just any religions: Abrahamic religions in particular, with their violent and punitive god who condemns everyone who doesn't believe in him to eternal torment. Humans emulate their Gods. Yahweh is a psychopath.
We would certainly be much better off without him. It wouldn't leave our ruling classes with no method of convincing the rest of us to kill and die to enrich them, but it would remove one major propaganda tactic from their arsenal.
I think that is another single dimensional observation on your part. Judaism of the Abrahamic faiths is a comprehensive field just like capitalism, liberalism, communism, democracy, etc. you may point to historical forces who have overdosed on the wrong brand of religiosity, like some elements of the crusaders, however if we look at Judaism for example, its hard to erase the role it has played on world stage through out history. and I'll bring one point of this from the BBC homepage about Judaism:
"Someone who reads the Old Testament list of 36 capital crimes might think that Judaism is in favour of capital punishment, but they'd be wrong. During the period when Jewish law operated as a secular as well as a religious jurisdiction, Jewish courts very rarely imposed the death penalty. The state of Israel has abolished the death penalty for any crime that is now likely to be tried there.
The classic Old Testament texts quoted to justify capital punishment are these:
... life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth ...
Exodus 21:23-24
A man who spills human blood, his own blood shall be spilled by man because God made man in His own Image.
Genesis 9:6
Although they seem clear these texts are commonly misunderstood.
To really understand Jewish law one must not only read the Torah but consult the Talmud, an elaboration and interpretation by rabbinical scholars of the laws and commandments of the Torah.
The rabbis who wrote the Talmud created such a forest of barriers to actually using the death penalty that in practical terms it was almost impossible to punish anyone by death.
The rabbis did this with various devices:
interpreting texts in the context of Judaism's general respect for the sanctity of human life
emphasising anti-death texts such as the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill'
interpreting texts to make them very narrow in their application
refusing to accept any but the most explicit Torah texts proposing the death penalty
finding alternative punishments, or schemes of compensation for victims' families
imposing procedural and evidential barriers that made the death penalty practically unenforceable
The result of this is that there are very few examples of people being executed by Jewish law in rabbinic times.
Israel
In 1954, Israel abolished capital punishment except for those who committed Nazi war crimes.
In the 61 years that Israel has existed as an independent state, only one person has been executed. This person was Adolf Eichman, a Nazi war criminal with particular responsibility for the Holocaust."
I'm sorry, Caladan, but until the "secular" Israelis rise up and remove the zealots from their settlements, and remove the leaders who send you to protect them from their positions of power, a few grudges don't impress me.
what are 'seculars'? are you questioning how secular Israelis or Jews in general may be? are they secular only when we feel they have something to contribute to our debate? many Israelis are as secular as Noam Chomsky is.
I sympathize, but I believe your country is run by religious lunatics who think God gave them the Holy Land.
Then you need to educate yourself on the history of the modern state of Israel. sure the current coalition of the Israeli government has the strongest religious elements probably the state has ever known, but the vast majority of the votes went for two parties: Kadima and Likud, none of which are religious parties. further more for the most part of the history of the state of Israel, it was ruled by the labour, which was also behind the founding of the nation.
I know you have to fight for their religious ends - you don't have a choice - but you live in a democracy, no? You don't have to elect Zionists.
What religious ends? and whos? did the Israeli soldiers who took part in the evacuation of the Gaza strip from Jewish settlers took part in a religious crusade?
I think we are looking at this from very different perspectives. I don't believe in race or ethnicity myself. They're figments of our xenophobic imagination. IMO, we have nothing but culture to distinguish us from one another, and culture and religious belief are inseparable.
Sure, I can go with culture. however, many members of various cultures or societies are not religious, their societies may the historical background of Christianity, Judaism or other religion in a sense, but times have changed in the last few centuries.
From this perspective, a "secular" state is simply a state where the religious background of many of its laws, policies and social norms are not overt. For example, Canada is a secular country, and yet homosexuals still had to fight to be allowed to marry here. Likewise, Zionism might be a nominally secular movement, but the belief that there is any such thing as a "Jew" to begin with is religious.
I disagree. being Jewish for me is cultural. there have been many prominent figures on the Israeli and Jewish landscape through the last decades who have been very culturally motivated but not religiously motivated.
Yeah, a lot of deeply religious states and governments are defined as secular on paper. The USA for example. It doesn't mean much, apart from the fact that their religiously motivated policies need to be (at least superficially) justified on the basis of something other than their holy books.
I agree that the US is a pretty religious nation by culture, however many topics are subject for change through an ongoing debate between religious elements and secular elements.