Are we responsible for the sins of our gr.-gr.-grandparents

[Deeje]

Seems you should spend some time with animals.
Hells bells, most of them are far more moral than the vast majority of humans.

I have no problem with that statement given the conduct of some humans.

There are several animals that will mourn the lose of their mates, or siblings, or parents, or owners to the point of literally starving themselves to death.

Since animals are primarily governed by instinct, their behavior is not necessarily the result of cognitively recognizing the loss of a significant other, but in trying to overcome their programming. Many species mate for life, but studies have shown that they are far from faithful....like a lot of humans.

It is true that a few species like dogs or elephants can manifest some human-like emotions, but by and large, the majority of creatures on this planet face death in their species every day by getting on with life. The ratio of species that appear to respond in a human way to death, compared to the species that don't, is overwhelmingly small.

Which pokes a rather large hole in your above misguided and mostly wrong above quoted post.

No it doesn't.

 

[Augustus]

Yeah, people are still judged according to their family (an apple doesn't fall far from the tree etc.), but Exodus presents it as a divine curse since it's supposed to be God's Word.

But you believe it was written by man, so why consider it 'evil' if it is a man-made statement that serves as a warning against potentially catastrophic behaviour?

It's probably pretty good advice is it not?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

As I said in my first post, that is only when I do the same sins that they did. If I do better, then I am not held accountable.

Not according to Exodus.

So long as I've cleared up your original problem with the verses.

None of that changes God's visiting guilt upon you for your ancestors not keeping the commandments--unless, of course, you reject any claim to a divine authorship for Exodus and the 10 Commandments. I don't, but I still agree with and keep 5 of them. In doing so I partially agree with, and honor, the human author of Exodus.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Jesus sacrificed Himself, for His followers. This is the sacrifice that annuls the sin punishment thusly, besides sin that we accrue for ourselves.

Jews (generally) don't believe in human sacrifice. The idea of Jesus' (human) sacrifice for our sins comes from Paul (a Roman citizen via his Herodian ancestry), who melded his Paulistic version of "Christianity" with Mithraic mythology from his hometown of Tarsus.

Your question seems only relevant to faiths which do not utilize the Jesus aspect of religious adherence.

I think the idea of salvific sacrifice to pay for the sins, even unrepentant sins, of others, is an evil idea. And that idea is further validated by Paul's use of similar sacrifice of Mithras, and the Last Supper where Jesus' flesh and blood is consumed in a symbolic cannibalistic ritual. That aspect of the ritual was "revealed" to Paul by Jesus (according to Paul), even though the ritual had ostensibly been established by Jesus, and practiced subsequently. Jews, for whom cannibalism (symbolic or otherwise) would object to it as blasphemy, but Paul was already moving on to a bigger Gentile audience.

But you believe it was written by man, so why consider it 'evil' if it is a man-made statement that serves as a warning against potentially catastrophic behaviour?

???? Man is the only source of evil, manifested in our choices to do evil rather than good. And what warning, guilt for the sins of one's ancestors? Claiming divine authorship, when none exists, is to bear false witness--thus breaking the commandment against it. The Bible comes much closer to a valid moral code with the Golden Rule which I claim to be very reasonable when stated thus: Honoring the equal rights of all to their life, liberty, property and self-defense, to be free from violation through force or fraud. Everything else is not morality, it's individual virtue.

It's probably pretty good advice is it not?

As I mentioned above, I think five of them are actually more than good advice. But, for instance, I particularly object to keeping the sabbath, and enforcing it with the death penalty. That alone signals human tampering and invalid insertions--here and elsewhere, even if you believe in divine inspiration of the Bible generally. The Bible, in both the O/T and N/T warns against adding to or taking away from what is written. What need is there for those warnings, if it's God's permanent infallible Word. It's a tacit admission that it can (and has) been changed, probably (ironically) even by the ones who wrote the warnings.

 

[metis]

None of that changes God's visiting guilt upon you for your ancestors not keeping the commandments--unless, of course, you reject any claim to a divine authorship for Exodus and the 10 Commandments. I don't, but I still agree with and keep 5 of them. In doing so I partially agree with, and honor, the human author of Exodus.

There are 613 Commandments as found in Torah, and it was never assumed that anyone would be able to live a full life without the possibility of breaking one or more. This is why the more serious ones usually have penalties attached to them. If all Commandments were equal, and violating one would be like violating them all, then this pattern within Torah would make no sense.

 

[viole]

Jesus sacrificed Himself, for His followers. This is the sacrifice that annuls the sin punishment thusly, besides sin that we accrue for ourselves.

Your question seems only relevant to faiths which do not utilize the Jesus aspect of religious adherence.

/

Except that it does not lool like much of a sacrifice, if we think about it.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

There are 613 Commandments as found in Torah, and it was never assumed that anyone would be able to live a full life without the possibility of breaking one or more. This is why the more serious ones usually have penalties attached to them. If all Commandments were equal, and violating one would be like violating them all, then this pattern within Torah would make no sense.

Not sure what that has to do with the issue. And for a biblical example of someone being perfect, Job springs to mind.

 

[Deeje]

I don't see how I can blame anything when I will be dead.

No, but you can blame sin when you experience the death of someone close to you. Everything in you screams that this is not natural....death, unless it is the end of extreme suffering through a terminal illness, is not a friend....the Bible calls it an enemy. What human being with relative good health and happy family life "wants" to die?

I think science can tell us very well why we die.

No it doesn't. It can explain the dying process, (the how) but not "why" it happens. It can't explain why a tree or even a tortoise can live hundreds of years longer than a human.

The purpose of life is gene transmission. Once you managed that, you are disposable, so to speak. And it does not make a lot evolutionary sense to prolongue life beyond evolutionary necessity. Apart from the fact that death is one of the basic mechanisms that make life, and the evolution thereof, possible.

Funny how all the other creatures come to terms with death as a natural part of life...and yet humans are the only creatures on earth who can contemplate their own demise and the loss of their nearest and dearest. It scares the socks off most of them. If evolution is so clever, then why did it not program us for death as it did for them?

Older people will tell you that age is a state of body, not a state of mind. Our minds do not age inasmuch as we still feel young on the inside despite the outer self deteriorating.
Getting old is hard, which is why 'anti-aging' is actually an industry.....completely ineffective, but making a fortune playing on human vanity and our natural desire to perpetuate our youth. Some are dragged into old age, kicking and screaming.

I would not be here if death did not exist. So, thank you death, i guess.

Death did not give birth to you.....someone living did. And it feels so wrong when that someone passes away and leaves an awful gap in your life....or worse, you lose a child.
God's original command was to "fill the earth" with our kind....when he said that, humans had no natural cause of death.

Since the earth has a natural but finite capacity to support life, animals have a cycle of life and death as a means to regulate their populations, but man was given the opportunity to live forever...right here on earth in his mortal flesh. It is therefore a natural human desire to go on living. That being the case, the Creator must have had something in mind for when that capacity was reached. He doesn't tell us, but the possibilities are endless...imagine!

If you call staying dead three days (only) a supreme sacrifice that washes away sins, then I am sure it makes a lot of sense. I would have expected at least one week, though. Sins are important stuff difficult to wash

Appreciating what Jesus did requires that we acknowledge where he came from, what his life entailed before his 33 and a half year earthly sojourn, and what he went through in the last three and a half years of his mortal life. He was 100% human with all the feelings and capabilities that all humans have growing up. As Messiah, despite his miraculous powers, he suffered what any human would have suffered, being tortured and humiliated before undergoing an excruciating death. (No human used the power of the holy spirit on themselves or on other Christians, so Jesus went to his death willingly to save the human race.)

He was not God in the flesh, but a sinless, loyal servant of his God who volunteered to offer his perfect life to redeem mankind, sold into slavery to sin by their forefather Adam, (through no fault on their part.) He didn't have to do that, but willingly did so because of the love he and his Father had for humankind....made in their likeness, capable of possessing their qualities...if they chose to do so.

When in the tomb, he was genuinely dead for parts of three days and nights. He was raised back to life "in the spirit" so as to be able to return to his former life, having accomplished what no other human could have done. If you cannot appreciate what Jesus did, then his sacrifice will not apply to you.....only those who fully comprehend what he did and why, will be counted among the ones he came to "save"......we can choose to be among them...or not.

 

[Augustus]

???? Man is the only source of evil, manifested in our choices to do evil rather than good. And what warning, guilt for the sins of one's ancestors? Claiming divine authorship, when none exists, is to bear false witness--thus breaking the commandment against it. The Bible comes much closer to a valid moral code with the Golden Rule which I claim to be very reasonable when stated thus: Honoring the equal rights of all to their life, liberty, property and self-defense, to be free from violation through force or fraud. Everything else is not morality, it's individual virtue.

But you are applying a 21st century mindset to a text reflecting cultural traditions from 2500 years ago.

Instead of being 'evil' it is 'of its time'.

 

[psychoslice]

What a horrible belief to make people believe that they are born in sin, my god it gives no one any hope right from the start, and I cannot believe that such a belief has made it into the 21st century.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

But you are applying a 21st century mindset to a text reflecting cultural traditions from 2500 years ago.

Instead of being 'evil' it is 'of its time'.

It was just as wrong then as it is now. But if it was actually God's word, it would be just as right now as it was then--unless God were to make an appearance and say that it was wrong now and isn't true any more. But God won't make an appearance, and never did in the first place. Either this proves it, or it shows that God is as fallible as we.

What a horrible belief to make people believe that they are born in sin, my god it gives no one any hope right from the start, and I cannot believe that such a belief has made it into the 21st century.

Yes, the same principle as hell, control through fear.

 

[JoStories]

LOL, animals are not sinners. In case you haven't noticed, they have no moral concept. In order to sin, you need a moral capacity.

I beg to differ. Apes and gorillas for one exhibit moral behaviors. Wolves mate for life as do hawks. I don't see that happening too often with Christian couples who divorce. In many cases, animals are a lot more moral than humans are.

 

[Augustus]

It was just as wrong then as it is now.

It was good advice then; they weren't living in a 21st C society with 21st C needs.

 

[mindlight]

Ex. 20:5--I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

Can this be interpreted any other way but that even the gr.- gr.- granchildren of a sinner are damned or punished for any of their thirty ancestors transgressions? Or is this, as it appears, simply one of many manipulations to instill fear in one's congregants to toe the line of blind faith.

There are shadows of the past in everyones life and these can be generations deep. Past on sins and failures can be engrained in habits and ways of thinking and acting past on from one generation to another. However I think our responsibility lies in the difference we make and the choices we make. Faced with who we are do we make choices to move in a more positive direction or merely to confirm and affirm these directions in our lives?

 

[viole]

No, but you can blame sin when you experience the death of someone close to you. Everything in you screams that this is not natural....death, unless it is the end of extreme suffering through a terminal illness, is not a friend....the Bible calls it an enemy. What human being with relative good health and happy family life "wants" to die?

No it doesn't. It can explain the dying process, (the how) but not "why" it happens. It can't explain why a tree or even a tortoise can live hundreds of years longer than a human.

You assume there are "why's" or "becauses" about things. I cannot exclude that you try to give answers to questions that are superfluous, to start with.

Funny how all the other creatures come to terms with death as a natural part of life...and yet humans are the only creatures on earth who can contemplate their own demise and the loss of their nearest and dearest. It scares the socks off most of them. If evolution is so clever, then why did it not program us for death as it did for them?

Older people will tell you that age is a state of body, not a state of mind. Our minds do not age inasmuch as we still feel young on the inside despite the outer self deteriorating.
Getting old is hard, which is why 'anti-aging' is actually an industry.....completely ineffective, but making a fortune playing on human vanity and our natural desire to perpetuate our youth. Some are dragged into old age, kicking and screaming.



Death did not give birth to you.....someone living did. And it feels so wrong when that someone passes away and leaves an awful gap in your life....or worse, you lose a child.
God's original command was to "fill the earth" with our kind....when he said that, humans had no natural cause of death.

Since the earth has a natural but finite capacity to support life, animals have a cycle of life and death as a means to regulate their populations, but man was given the opportunity to live forever...right here on earth in his mortal flesh. It is therefore a natural human desire to go on living. That being the case, the Creator must have had something in mind for when that capacity was reached. He doesn't tell us, but the possibilities are endless...imagine!

Sooner or later the 2nd principle will kick in. There is no escape. Immortality is physical nonsense. But I agree it can have some spiritual value, whatever that is.

Appreciating what Jesus did requires that we acknowledge where he came from, what his life entailed before his 33 and a half year earthly sojourn, and what he went through in the last three and a half years of his mortal life. He was 100% human with all the feelings and capabilities that all humans have growing up. As Messiah, despite his miraculous powers, he suffered what any human would have suffered, being tortured and humiliated before undergoing an excruciating death. (No human used the power of the holy spirit on themselves or on other Christians, so Jesus went to his death willingly to save the human race.)

He was not God in the flesh, but a sinless, loyal servant of his God who volunteered to offer his perfect life to redeem mankind, sold into slavery to sin by their forefather Adam, (through no fault on their part.) He didn't have to do that, but willingly did so because of the love he and his Father had for humankind....made in their likeness, capable of possessing their qualities...if they chose to do so.

When in the tomb, he was genuinely dead for parts of three days and nights. He was raised back to life "in the spirit" so as to be able to return to his former life, having accomplished what no other human could have done. If you cannot appreciate what Jesus did, then his sacrifice will not apply to you.....only those who fully comprehend what he did and why, will be counted among the ones he came to "save"......we can choose to be among them...or not.

I really don't see what is so impressive. Going to die knowing in advance to be alive and kicking after the weekend and ready to rule the universe?

I mean. Everyone would do that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

It was good advice then; they weren't living in a 21st C society with 21st C needs.

If the God-given rules changed, wouldn't God let us know so we wouldn't be trying to fit our 21st Century CE needs into 20th Century BCE advice COMMANDMENTS. It makes infinitely more reasoned sense that those rules weren't God-given but man made, with some being erroneous to begin with, i.e. execution for breaking the sabbath. Just another reason that it also makes infinitely more reasoned sense that God would never interact in the universe in order to maintain our free will.

There are shadows of the past in everyones life and these can be generations deep. Past on sins and failures can be engrained in habits and ways of thinking and acting past on from one generation to another.

But we aren't judged and damned by the shadows of our ancestors at birth. Those shadows are only tendencies which we can override with our will--our all important free will which is completely and totally under the control of each individual. If it weren't, then it wouldn't be free.

However I think our responsibility lies in the difference we make and the choices we make.

Exactly. Free will is moral free will, which means we are free to make choices between good and evil in our interpersonal actions with others. I believe the strength of our soul, if you will, comes from our personal code we establish for ourselves, and how well we adhere to it. I call it virtue instead of morality. And (this is new), I believe we are damned (by ourselves to oblivion) only by our moral choices, but not damned by our personal code of virtues, which determines how brightly our souls shine--in this world, and hopefully the next. Let me hasten to add, don't take this as an implication of rank or score. The achievement of one is uplifting to all.

Faced with who we are do we make choices to move in a more positive direction or merely to confirm and affirm these directions in our lives?

Again, exactly. Those choices continue to shape who we are throughout our lives. And we can change, for better or worse.[/QUOTE]

 

[Tumah]

Not according to Exodus.

Well as you know, Jews approach the Bible through the lens of the Talmud, so that's not really a problem for us.

None of that changes God's visiting guilt upon you for your ancestors not keeping the commandments--unless, of course, you reject any claim to a divine authorship for Exodus and the 10 Commandments. I don't, but I still agree with and keep 5 of them. In doing so I partially agree with, and honor, the human author of Exodus.

Not sure what this has to do with your OP.

Unless of course, your OP was not an honest question but a chance to rag on the Bible...

 

[Timothy Bryce]

It always seems to be complex. For everyone. It's not. People just chase their tails when they know they have a problem that they don't want to address. Self-victimizing is a huge personal business in the west; often it's attributed to a lack of responsibility and accountability - "I've failed; therefore it must be someone else's fault".

It's difficult to discern what's truly valuable.

I don't like this post of mine anymore; knowing full well where it really comes from.

 

[Deeje]

I beg to differ. Apes and gorillas for one exhibit moral behaviors. Wolves mate for life as do hawks. I don't see that happening too often with Christian couples who divorce. In many cases, animals are a lot more moral than humans are.

I can't argue with that either except to say that a few species who demonstrate an exception, rather than a rule, do not make a case. There are always exceptions to every rule.

Christians who divorce on grounds other than adultery are breaking God's law. There are just two grounds on which a Christian can scripturally dissolve a marriage and legally remarry...adultery or death. The Bible therefore advises us to choose wisely....and to forgive freely if we want a happy marriage.

It has been established through DNA testing that animals and birds who "mate for life" have not been faithful to their mates....humans are very like them in many respects.

 

[Deeje]

You assume there are "why's" or "becauses" about things. I cannot exclude that you try to give answers to questions that are superfluous, to start with.

That would be because there are "why's" and "becauses" for everything. That is why people dedicate their lives to the study of such things. It's called medical science. There are a multitude of fields of science that study the "why's" and "becauses" of a whole range of subjects. You don't think we need them?

If we are meant to die then why hasn't evolution given us what the animals have....no concept of their own death?

Sooner or later the 2nd principle will kick in. There is no escape. Immortality is physical nonsense.

You do know that there is a distinct difference between immortality and everlasting life, don't you?

Humans were never offered immortality...they were offered unending life in their mortal flesh if they just followed the instructions of their Maker. He had provided the means right there in the garden. This is something science has been working on since time immemorial...the search for the "Fountain of Youth" is legendary. People don't want to get old or sick or die....but once sin entered into the world through the disobedience of one man, that is all there was to look forward to. God provided a rescuer in the form of his son.

But I agree it can have some spiritual value, whatever that is.

Unless you know what God offered humankind in the beginning, his offering of immortal life in heaven to a chosen few, will mean very little.

I really don't see what is so impressive. Going to die knowing in advance to be alive and kicking after the weekend and ready to rule the universe?

I mean. Everyone would do that.

Would they? Would you undergo an unfair trial that found you guilty of something you did not do knowing it carried the death penalty? Would you willingly submit to whipping with a flagellum, (a whip with fragments of bone) tearing your flesh off your body? Would you volunteer to have opposers spit in your face and force a thorny crown into your scalp? Weakened by all this you are then forced to carry an enormous beam of wood that was going to be used to execute you.
Would you like soldiers to hammer nails through the flesh on your hands and feet and hang you up so that you suffered for hours in agony? The only way to avoid suffocation was to push up with your feet to take a breath, but when they had enjoyed your suffering long enough, they came along and broke your legs so that you couldn't breathe anymore? This was a common form of Roman execution. At least for Jesus, they didn't have to break his legs....he had already died. The criminals hung alongside him had their legs broken.

You think all of that was a piece of cake because you had been promised a resurrection? Seriously?