Are we responsible for the sins of our gr.-gr.-grandparents

[Deeje]

Completely absurd. So if one of your great-grandfathers was charged with rape, found guilty and sentenced to 25+ years in prison you'd be perfectly okay with all his descendants (including you) being forced to serve the same sentence for that specific ancestor's crime?

That's what would happen if a nation's legal system reflected the barbaric Original Sin doctrine. Original Sin is not just; and it makes a mockery of the idea that the Christian god is a just god.

Came in on the discussion a bit late did we?

Please read other comments, all this has been discussed already....your comment is not even close to what to what I actually said.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

That is a "how" not a "why". Theoretically, we should go on renewing our cells indefinitely, but no one knows why the "Hayflick limit" comes into play to shorten the telemores.

It does not come into play, it shortens from day one on every division.

 

[Jainarayan]

IOW, we're robots, unable to break the strings of cause and effect going back to forever. Everything was determined at the Planck Epoch.

Not robots because things can be altered. Örlög, "Original" or "fundamental law", the Germanic/North European concept of the principles governing the universe. Orlog includes both physical and moral laws, and encompasses such things as gravity, relativity and cause-and-effect..." - http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=orlog Only Örlög was established at the creation of the universe. I think few Heathens will dispute the science of the Big Bang.

Wyrd is the "tapestry" that the Norns weave which governs individuals, families, groups, kindreds. Wyrd is not fate because actions can cause it to be rewoven. We do keep the Norns busy. In Germanic thinking there is no concept of the future. In fact, Germanic languages do not have a true future tense, as do other Indo-European languages. The Germanic "future tense" is formed by modals. For this reason, the only two time periods are the past, and the present, or "that which is becoming" and can change.

 

[Jainarayan]

If you die, then you have sin (imperfection) to blame for that. The 'wages of sin is death'. In other words, sin is what produces aging, sickness and death.

Trees, frogs and snails die because they are receiving the wages of sin?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Came in on the discussion a bit late did we?

I'm so sorry, Your Grace. I didn't realise I was supposed to have arrived at a pre-determined time - and that I can only ask certain question you deem fit to answer.

Please read other comments, all this has been discussed already....your comment is not even close to what to what I actually said.

Has it, aye? I've read through every comment and not seen it. And my comment was an analogy. Try reading it again and if you're still having trouble understanding then I'll be happy to explain.

You didn't answer the question, by the way.

Would you be okay with serving jail time for rape because an ancestor of yours was a rapist; even if you yourself had committed no such crime?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

This.

As I said before: maybe you want to look at the Ex. 34:7 again.

"He continues to show his love to thousands of generations, forgiving wrongdoing, disobedience, and sin. He never lets the guilty go unpunished, punishing children and grandchildren for their parents' sins to the third and fourth generation." Ex 34:7 GWT.

or as often translated ....."extending kindness to the thousandth generation"....Torah

"Thousands of generations" (minimum 2000) or "to the thousandth generation" is what is often translated as simply "thousands"--which on its own is really sort of absurd given God's scope.

You miss the point, in ancient tribal societies, being trustworthy or 'honorable' was closer to a matter of life or death than simply a 'virtue'.

The quote in the op is highlighting the long term consequences of damaging your reputation in societies such as these.

Yeah, people are still judged according to their family (an apple doesn't fall far from the tree etc.), but Exodus presents it as a divine curse since it's supposed to be God's Word.

 

[Tumah]

"He continues to show his love to thousands of generations, forgiving wrongdoing, disobedience, and sin. He never lets the guilty go unpunished, punishing children and grandchildren for their parents' sins to the third and fourth generation." Ex 34:7 GWT.

or as often translated ....."extending kindness to the thousandth generation"....Torah

"Thousands of generations" (minimum 2000) or "to the thousandth generation" is what is often translated as simply "thousands"--which on its own is really sort of absurd given God's scope.

Your translation adds words and doesn't break up the verse correctly. It should read as follows:

[He] guards (ie does) kindness for thousands. [He] carries iniquity, transgression and sin. And clean, [He does] not clean. [He] remembers the sins of fathers on sons on son's sons on the third [generation] and on the fourth [generation].

Doing kindness and punishing for sin are two unrelated things. They do not contradict each other. I can be repaid for the good deeds that my father and I do, even as I am punished for the sins that my great grandfather did.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Your translation adds words and doesn't break up the verse correctly. It should read as follows:

[He] guards (ie does) kindness for thousands. [He] carries iniquity, transgression and sin. And clean, [He does] not clean. [He] remembers the sins of fathers on sons on son's sons on the third [generation] and on the fourth [generation].

Doing kindness and punishing for sin are two unrelated things. They do not contradict each other. I can be repaid for the good deeds that my father and I do, even as I am punished for the sins that my great grandfather did.

That's the problem with a "God" who relies on men to proclaim "God's Word". Along with all the intentional and unintentional human misrepresentations, we have this plethora of translations which we can only argue about which one is right since God, the ultimate authority, won't make an appearance to straighten things out. Looks like they're all false.

 

[Tumah]

That's the problem with a "God" who relies on men to proclaim "God's Word". Along with all the intentional and unintentional human misrepresentations, we have this plethora of translations which we can only argue about which one is right since God, the ultimate authority, won't make an appearance to straighten things out. Looks like they're all false.

That's a Christian problem. I'm Jewish.
I believe the Bible was meant for the people it was given to.
Incidentally, we use the Hebrew.
This problem doesn't bother me.

 

[viole]

If you die, then you have sin (imperfection) to blame for that.

I don't see how I can blame anything when I will be dead.

The 'wages of sin is death'. In other words, sin is what produces aging, sickness and death. You know science can tell us "how" we die....but not "why". We have the capacity in our own genetic structure to replace every cell in our body in a perpetual process of regeneration...no one knows what throws it into reverse. If they could discover what causes aging and disease in a body designed to defeat both, we could all live forever. Trouble is, who would want to live forever in this world?

I think science can tell us very well why we die. The purpose of life is gene transmission. Once you managed that, you are disposable, so to speak. And it does not make a lot evolutionary sense to prolongue life beyond evolutionary necessity. Apart from the fact that death is one of the basic mechanisms that make life, and the evolution thereof, possible.

I would not be here if death did not exist. So, thank you death, i guess.

You can take it with whatever you like. Will browbeating people into submission make them live longer? Will it eliminate disease, disability and suffering?
If you choose not to believe in what the Bible says, that is entirely your prerogative. But I believe that it makes perfect sense.

If you call staying dead three days (only) a supreme sacrifice that washes away sins, then I am sure it makes a lot of sense. I would have expected at least one week, though. Sins are important stuff difficult to wash

Ciao

- viole

 

[McBell]

False pronouncement.

The painful truth my ***.

 

[Deeje]

I'm so sorry, Your Grace. I didn't realise I was supposed to have arrived at a pre-determined time - and that I can only ask certain question you deem fit to answer.

You responded to an erroneous premise, that had already been addressed. http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...gr-gr-grandparents.183972/page-4#post-4608528
http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...gr-gr-grandparents.183972/page-4#post-4608528

Has it, aye? I've read through every comment and not seen it. And my comment was an analogy. Try reading it again and if you're still having trouble understanding then I'll be happy to explain.

Och aye laddie, your comment was not responding to anything I said. If you had really read my explanation, you couldn't have asked the question you posted.

You didn't answer the question, by the way.

Would you be okay with serving jail time for rape because an ancestor of yours was a rapist; even if you yourself had committed no such crime?

Why would I answer such a silly question? How does this even relate to what the Bible says? NO ONE is held accountable for sins they did not commit. The sin we inherited has been covered by a very generous donation. The sins we commit by our own choice, we will answer for personally. How is that not fair?

 

[Deeje]

Trees, frogs and snails die because they are receiving the wages of sin?

LOL, animals are not sinners. In case you haven't noticed, they have no moral concept. In order to sin, you need a moral capacity.
They are programmed by instinct to do what they do to perpetuate their species.
Humans on the other hand plan their activities and pre-meditate what they will do with a perceived outcome in mind.
We alone perform deliberate acts based on what we know is "right or wrong" and often carry them out regardless.
Animals have no concept of right or wrong....all they know is self preservation.

Unlike animals, humans are not programmed for death. If we were, we would not have periods of extended grief that sometimes last for years.

 

[arthra]

Ex. 20:5--I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

Can this be interpreted any other way but that even the gr.- gr.- granchildren of a sinner are damned or punished for any of their thirty ancestors transgressions? Or is this, as it appears, simply one of many manipulations to instill fear in one's congregants to toe the line of blind faith.

It might be a good thing to see this verse in it's context...

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(King James Bible, Exodus)

So the balance is between those "who hate Me" and those "that love Me"... and between "the third and fourth generation" and "shewing mercy unto thousands"

And consider the "inequity" reference in the verse above:

I know that there is a kind of "karma" or action - reaction ..."what you sow so shall ye reap" that can have reverberations over three generations... I'm not referring to idolatry or idol worship but the kind of behavior that can impact those in the future.

 

[McBell]

LOL, animals are not sinners. In case you haven't noticed, they have no moral concept. In order to sin, you need a moral capacity.
They are programmed by instinct to do what they do to perpetuate their species.
Humans on the other hand plan their activities and pre-meditate what they will do with a perceived outcome in mind.
We alone perform deliberate acts based on what we know is "right or wrong" and often carry them out regardless.
Animals have no concept of right or wrong....all they know is self preservation.

Unlike animals, humans are not programmed for death. If we were, we would not have periods of extended grief that sometimes last for years.

Seems you should spend some time with animals.
Hells bells, most of them are far more moral than the vast majority of humans.

There are several animals that will mourn the lose of their mates, or siblings, or parents, or owners to the point of literally starving themselves to death.

Which pokes a rather large hole in your above misguided and mostly wrong above quoted post.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

That's a Christian problem. I'm Jewish.
I believe the Bible was meant for the people it was given to.
Incidentally, we use the Hebrew.
This problem doesn't bother me.

What, that you're not bothered by being held held accountable for your ancestors sins? And as for not having the "Christian Problem", no, maybe not by that name. But there have always been the various sects, with the Ebionites, Essenes, and Nazarenes (among others) who were likely associated as followers of Jesus.

In any case, you maintain the same flaws as all other revealed religions: blind faith in the sole ultimate authority for your miracles and revelations, hearsay; and corruption--which, in your favor, you often documented.

The painful truth my ***.

You say I'm a pain in your ***? I suspected as much, that's sort of the point. But no matter how painful, the Truth will set you free.

It might be a good thing to see this verse in it's context...

20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(King James Bible, Exodus)

So the balance is between those "who hate Me" and those "that love Me"... and between "the third and fourth generation" and "shewing mercy unto thousands"

And consider the "inequity" reference in the verse above:

I know that there is a kind of "karma" or action - reaction ..."what you sow so shall ye reap" that can have reverberations over three generations... I'm not referring to idolatry or idol worship but the kind of behavior that can impact those in the future.

Well of course "those that hate me" are also the ones the authors want to be afraid, and thus be more likely to resign themselves to being manipulated.

 

[McBell]

You say I'm a pain in your ***? I suspected as much, that's sort of the point. But no matter how painful, the Truth will set you free.

I suspected you were a real legend in your own mind.
Thank you for confirming it.

Now since you ahve shown you have no desire for honest discussion in this thread, I shall grant you the last word in this exchange.
Please try to not waste it.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Seems you should spend some time with animals.
Hells bells, most of them are far more moral than the vast majority of humans.

There are several animals that will mourn the lose of their mates, or siblings, or parents, or owners to the point of literally starving themselves to death.

Which pokes a rather large hole in your above misguided and mostly wrong above quoted post.

Animals aren't moral any more than infants and toddlers are. They're innocent because they don't have full self awareness; that is, capable of putting themselves in the shoes of another, and understand our universal, inevitable mortality.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I suspected you were a real legend in your own mind.
Thank you for confirming it.

Now since you ahve shown you have no desire for honest discussion in this thread, I shall grant you the last word in this exchange.
Please try to not waste it.

But I am interested. It is you who dismissed the discussion with your ad hominem comment.

 

[Tumah]

What, that you're not bothered by being held held accountable for your ancestors sins?

As I said in my first post, that is only when I do the same sins that they did. If I do better, then I am not held accountable.

And as for not having the "Christian Problem", no, maybe not by that name. But there have always been the various sects, with the Ebionites, Essenes, and Nazarenes (among others) who were likely associated as followers of Jesus.

In any case, you maintain the same flaws as all other revealed religions: blind faith in the sole ultimate authority for your miracles and revelations, hearsay; and corruption--which, in your favor, you often documented.

So long as I've cleared up your original problem with the verses.