Are we wasting our lives?

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, it is one of the reasons science has been able to make so many advances over the last few centuries. It was when we started requiring ideas to be testable through observation that we actually started understanding more about how the universe works.

I see that is great, it is what was needed in Faith also. I see what was not needed was to discard faith, because it had wrongly neglected science.

Regards Tony

 

[Polymath257]

I see the best evidence is Gods Messengers, the ones that tell us they are of God and have a Message for us.

It's a tricky business though. If we quote one of them, Jesus the Christ, His message warns us to be aware of false prophets.

If we are just in our search, we will see they arethe first to live by the Message they gave. Again a tricky business. It is not something to take lightly, we must weigh all the given evidence with science and reason.

And, from what I have seen, none of the declared prophets has been more than human. They had the ability to motivate others, but that alone isn't anything special. Their messages are varied and mutually contradictory. So I count all of what they said as 'opinion'. Ultimately, I judge them all to have been wrong. Jesus, for example, seems to have been one of many itinerant preachers of that time and place.

 

[Polymath257]

I see that is great, it is what was needed in Faith also. I see what was not needed was to discard faith, because it had wrongly neglected science.

And again I disagree. Advances were made precisely because the mindset of skepticism as opposed to that of faith was adopted.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, it *is* your opinion. It may also be the opinion of your source.

I see it is like light from the Sun. An opinion is like sharing a ray of light from the sun as a mirror.

As the mirror I am not the sun and I am not the ray, I can share as I had chosen to turn my mirror to the ray and reflect it on. How I reflect it depends on how much I have polished the mirror of my heart.

Every bodies opinion has a source. Some say the opinion is theirs, but do they own it..? What was the source of that opinion?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And, from what I have seen, none of the declared prophets has been more than human. They had the ability to motivate others, but that alone isn't anything special. Their messages are varied and mutually contradictory. So I count all of what they said as 'opinion'. Ultimately, I judge them all to have been wrong. Jesus, for example, seems to have been one of many itinerant preachers of that time and place.

Sorry, run out of time, try to get back later this afternoon.

Thanks for the chat, I enjoy looking into myself to find inspiration about what you are saying. In that way, one day, I hope that my opinion, will not be my opinion.

Regards Tony

 

[QuestioningMind]

Except in both the NDE state and the Dream State we can traverse time and space. We can meet people long dead and hold a conversation. We can see the future, we can find an answer to a problem.

I would ask, how can we know the future if mind is not more than now?

Regards Tony

I can transverse space and time sitting here in my chair using my imagination. I can meet dead people and have conversations with them in the same manner. I can imagine the future and I can find answers to my problems. All of which I experience with my senses and none of which is evidence 'beyond my senses'.

I would ask, how can we know the future if mind is not more than now?

People are capable of accurately predicting the future events, usually based upon their knowledge of past events, but I'm not aware of anyone actually KNOWING the future...as in having the future 'revealed' to them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Proves itself TO YOU. And this is one of the main problems with these lines of thinking. YOU are very likely the only benefactor of the pieces of evidence you are claiming as proof. And the problem lies in the fact that you, and many like you, refuse to acknowledge that the evidence is only pertinent to yourself, and so you try and impose the evidence on others, when it will not necessarily mean the same things to them.

I agree the evidence is pertinent to myself.

Who is imposing it on you, or anybody else? I started a thread that offers that Science and Faith will bring us to the same ultimate Truth. With this thread we could explore the possibility, or if we do not want to and choose only faith or science, are we wasting our lives?

Are you imposing a different view?

I can quote things I have found that I accept and prove to me this to be so. I will offer that to those that ask.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And again I disagree. Advances were made precisely because the mindset of skepticism as opposed to that of faith was adopted.

I do not see that was an accident of a material progression I see it as evolution of Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I agree the evidence is pertinent to myself.

Who is imposing it on you, or anybody else? I started a thread that offers that Science and Faith will bring us to the same ultimate Truth. With this thread we could explore the possibility, or if we do not want to and choose only faith or science, are we wasting our lives?

Are you imposing a different view?

I can quote things I have found that I accept and prove to me this to be so. I will offer that to those that ask.

Regards Tony

Little do you know, but even a statement like "science's ultimate goal is to realize the full love of God" is you imposing your ideas onto a realm where they do not belong. And any impressionable types who listen to and absorb the things you say have been imposed upon. This is the very reason there is such controversy over religious bent to school teachings.

 

[blü 2]

I see that people see that may be possible.

I personally see that life has no meaning without God and a purpose that extends beyond this mortal life. We can give life all we have, but that has no purpose if death overtakes.

Regards Tony

This may be the basic difference between our views.

I mentioned that I define 'truth' with the 'correspondence' definition: a statement is true to the extend that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality.

What definition of 'truth' do you use? Does it result in a test you can use to determine whether any statement is true is not?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Little do you know, but even a statement like "science's ultimate goal is to realize the full love of God" is you imposing your ideas onto a realm where they do not belong. And any impressionable types who listen to and absorb the things you say have been imposed upon. This is the very reason there is such controversy over religious bent to school teachings.

Everyone can choose what they wish to read here on this forum. It is then up to them also what truth they see in what they read.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Everyone can choose what they wish to read here on this forum. It is then up to them also what truth they see in what they read.

Regards Tony

Is it not also the responsibility of individuals to attempt to put forth truths versus deceit? If you think so, then even speaking as if you know, when you do NOT know, opens you up to the potential to be lying, and spreading false information. If you do not know, it is most honest to say so. If you pretend to know, give others this knowledge and are wrong, then you have spread lies. And YOU are responsible for this.

 

[viole]

This thread is in Science and Religion as it is about Truth and how each of us chooses to find, 'what is Truth'?

Truth is a noun usually written in lower case, unless we are dealing with some deepities. And that is absolutely true. By definition.

I seem to attract quite a few warnings for trying to convert people to my faith, even when I say repeatedly that I can not, do not have the ability to convert any person and do not want to convert any person.

I understand the rule, but i would never report anyone trying to convert me. I love it when people try to convert me.

My stance is that I acknowledge a higher power that gifts knowledge to any heart that power chooses to give knowledge to.

Your heart? That is a blood pump. Or do you mean the part of the brain computing emotions?

My part is to share the knowledge given to my heart. The issue for me and me only, is to determine what is the gifted part and what is from my own self.

That is going to be difficult. But you can try.

Thus the topic of the thread 'Are we wasting our lives'. To give it context from a faith side, it is said the entire purpose of our lives and of all knowledge is so that we can come to know and Love God.

Since there is so much evidence of God as there is for the blue fairy, I wonder how you can call it a purpose that fills lives. But suppose there is one with comparable evidence, Apollo for instance. Would you say that you gave purpose to your life by loving Apollo?

If not, what about the Apollonians of ancient Greece? Did they give purpose to their lives by loving Apollo?

Our own choices and actions determine if we progress towards that goal, in this life.

And if we do not? Well, I guess we can correct that in the next life, right? And if there is no next life, then we did not need any goal to start with.

The apex of knowledge for both science and faith, is to know and Love God.

Apollo? I think science dedicated something important to Him.

If this is not our goal, are we wasting this life?

Nope. There is a second life to correct that, right?

If this is our goal, are our own actions wasting this life?

So again, this is about what is Truth?

The thread has no intent but to explore what is truth and my side of the debate is that Truth is all of God.

Regards Tony

Before any meaningful, deepity free discussion, can ever take place, you have to show your evidence that God, or whatever you believe is the ultimate conscious source of Truth, exists.

Which is....?

Ciao

- viole

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This may be the basic difference between our views.

I mentioned that I define 'truth' with the 'correspondence' definition: a statement is true to the extend that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality.

What definition of 'truth' do you use? Does it result in a test you can use to determine whether any statement is true is not?

Thank you for the question. I see truth itself is the greatest test we can use. Consider that Truth takes many forms and in this thread we are exploring the way to the ultimate Truth and what it may be.

One example is we use courts of law to determine what is the truth. We question, use Logic and reason to determine with Justice as to what is the Truth. To do that we start at the very foundation of truth which is trustworthiness. If we trust the truth is being told, then we can determine the Truth has been found and the case is determined.

So as for the Truth about a Messenger of God and I use Baha'u'llah as an example. He was in his mid 30's when he accepted the Bab and became a Bab'i, before he received and gave His own Message. Thus he had a life before giving the Message as did all other Messengers like Jesus and Muhammad. Baha'u'llah asked us to, "Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

If we choose to do this and find that a person is Truthful, then we can trust what they tell us is also the truth. From there we can listen to what they tell us and again in justice and reason determine if what is given is plausible.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And, from what I have seen, none of the declared prophets has been more than human. They had the ability to motivate others, but that alone isn't anything special. Their messages are varied and mutually contradictory. So I count all of what they said as 'opinion'. Ultimately, I judge them all to have been wrong. Jesus, for example, seems to have been one of many itinerant preachers of that time and place.

Before I comment I would like to say I am only here to offer alternate thoughts, it is your path and it is your choices.

I have asked my own self if the messages seem contradictory, where does that uncertainty come from? If the Message is the truth, it can not and will not contradict another Message, which is also the truth.

I see this is where Justice and reason comes into play. what effort have we made to read and understand the Messages given? Did we make our own decision, or are we using 2nd or even 100 hand opinions, which could be very wrong and adding confusion. If we do consider that some messages were given thousands of years ago and men have has ample opportunity to add their own opinion, one can now see only a true determined search will unravel what might be the truth given in that message.

There is advice given as to what we must consider, if we are to sort out the Truth about Faith and be just in doing it, these two passages say a lot for me;

O Son of Spirit!
My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting

O Son of Spirit!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

People are capable of accurately predicting the future events, usually based upon their knowledge of past events, but I'm not aware of anyone actually KNOWING the future...as in having the future 'revealed' to them.

Then that is for you to pursue or not to pursue. There are many famous Precognitive dreams.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is it not also the responsibility of individuals to attempt to put forth truths versus deceit? If you think so, then even speaking as if you know, when you do NOT know, opens you up to the potential to be lying, and spreading false information. If you do not know, it is most honest to say so. If you pretend to know, give others this knowledge and are wrong, then you have spread lies. And YOU are responsible for this.

Thus I attempt to put forward the Truth to you and it is what this thread is about. Are we wasting our lives pursuing follies, all the while thinking we are on the path to finding truth?

From my position in this debate as mentioned in the OP, I have found the Messengers to tell only the Truth and now know it is not a lie that they have told us. In this age we are informed that Science is a gift from God to explore the reality of this creation.

In saying that, I am not saying what everyone thinks they said is necessarily the Truth. that would be up to each individual to decide upon.

Religion for thousands of years told us we would come to a day where knowledge will be increased, that God would gift us all knowledge, all that after a time where the meaning of the religious scriptures would be sealed and hard to understand.

Example that scripture has sealed meaning;

Daniel 12:4 4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."


John 16:"13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

It is up to you to pursue or not to pursue what is the Truth in those passages.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Before any meaningful, deepity free discussion, can ever take place, you have to show your evidence that God, or whatever you believe is the ultimate conscious source of Truth, exists.

Which is....? Ciao - viole

Thanks for your post, good to see you offer some thoughts.

Now the tricky bit Maybe this is where I have to say IMHO this is the evidence first. But really it is not my opinion, as it is the evidence or it is not.

I put the evidence forward for this age. It is Baha'u'llah.

There is a post above how Baha'u'llah can be the evidence, it is about being trustworthy and truthful.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

I did not make the assertion, it is recorded, I read it, considered it and have shared it.

It has become part of my reality and I will quote the sources if you wish.

Oh! It is recorded! Wow!

“I’m Jesus Christ, whether you want to accept it or not, I don’t care.”
Is a recorded quote from Charles Manson.

I guess, to your way of thinking, since it's recorded, it must be True.

If I did not care I would not be here posting such a thread. I can not change the way you consider life, that is all in your hands.

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle. Without recapping the entire conversation, you essentially claimed that you believed something because it was recorded. Are you now backing down from that assertion?

 

[ecco]

I see some have found all the evidence needed to emabrace God, I m not sure what others would need to embrace that Truth. It would be up to them to look if they choose to.

The above is an excellent example of your self-serving holier-than-thou mindset.

• Some embrace God
• It's so sad that everyone doesn't see the Truth of embracing God.
• Oh, if only they weren't so blind to the Truth.

I have never met you and you have not met me.

We do not know each other.

Regards Tony

So what. That doesn't alter the fact that you post your holier-than-thou assertions.