Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

[Colt]

Luke 17:20 When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21 Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

The Kingdom is not just one person, you, or me, it is many and the translation should no doubt be that the Kingdom is in your midst. The Kingdom will come slowly and unobserved because the members will be walking around like everyone else who is not in the Kingdom.
It is not until Jesus returns that the full glory of the Kingdom and of Jesus will be revealed.

True, but the kingdom is here now, albeit obscured by an overcomplicated religious system. And I agree, it will continue to grow as people return to faith in the Father.

 

[Brian2]

The Jews developed erroneous ideas about a Jewish Messiah based on the teachings of ancient seers that a "deliverer" was coming into the world. While the Son of God incarnate was that deliverer, he wasn't, he could not be the hoped for Jewish Messiah they expected. But Jesus met the Jews half way and stretched as much as he could within the framework of their confused expectations.

The religion of Jesus, the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, was to become the common heritage of all religions in the world. All religions could benefit from his original teachings. But a new religion about Jesus emerged shortly after he left. In an age to come the world will once again hear the Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven.

"No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse."

Yes Jesus did not come to just fix up the old Judaism, but came with a different way, the way of grace and the Spirit in the New Covenant with His blood as the blood of the Covenant.
Putting this new wine into the old wineskin of keeping the Law for salvation would not work. The gospel would be changed and not be the gospel and purpose of the Law would not be there. Judaism and Christianity would be spoilt.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus never taught that he was a sacrifice, he taught justification by faith, salvation by a change of heart, restoration of right relations with the Father. See The Parodical Son.

Jesus taught forgiveness by receiving it from the Father and in turn forgiving others. No connection to blood sacrifices. That's speculation on the part of sacrifice minded men who became followers of Jesus.

The backwards claim that Jesus came to be a sacrificial Lamb is debunked by Jesus beat down of those evil people who rejected his Gospel:


37I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. 38I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”39“Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. 41You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!

The message Jesus taught for 3+ years was already complete. The cross was simply the last of his miracles. Its how the Father and Son decided to wash their hands of the unbelieving Jews.

Where does Jesus say that they are rejecting His gospel message? Maybe you are imagining that this is what they were rejecting.

 

[Brian2]

Double minded will, atonement proponents claim it was Gods will that the Son die as a sacrifice.......but then God judges the Jews for doing so? That inconsistency emerged because the atonement doctrine is a corruption and requires absurd mental gymnastics to try to make it work.

It is Jesus and the OT prophecies of Him that tell us that He came to die and be a sacrifice, Jesus said a ransom sacrifice.
The New Covenant that God promised the Jews (eg Jer 31:33) is what Jesus was bringing and that New Covenant was not given till Jesus died and rose.
Nobody has to be able to understand if fully to accept it.
If we do not accept the Kingdom like a little child we will not enter it.

 

[Brian2]

What intellectually honest person could listen to Jesus' blistering condemnation of Jerusalem yet conclude that the Jews were doing the right thing in killing Jesus as a sacrifice????


Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell? 34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.Luke 13:31–35)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.

The Jews were doing the wrong thing in killing Jesus and will be judged for it, and the whole nation has been judged for it also. Who said they were doing the right thing? They did not even know that He would be a sacrifice.
Imagine if they knew that He would be a sacrifice. That might take away their guilt in killing an innocent man.

 

[Brian2]

Matthew 4

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24News about Him spread all over Syria, and people brought to Him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering acute pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed—and He healed them.

25The large crowds that followed Him came from Galilee, the Decapolis,f Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.

Considering that The cross hasn't happened yet, at the end his apostles didn't even know he was leaving, his true identity was a secret among the apostles, yet ------>Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, that Gospel could not be what it was after the cross.

* The original "good news" people heard before the cross wasn't Jesus dyeing for sin or that he was the Jewish Messiah. All that was speculation in retrospect.

* That original Gospel that Jesus taught in Galilee was very different. The religious authorities did not like that Gospel!

That good news was what would come after His death and instituting the New Covenant. Jesus did not speak to them plainly so that they could understand,,,,,,,,,,,,He spoke in parables so that they could not understand. How can the Jews reject or accept a gospel they have not understood?
They rejected Jesus their King and threw His crown to the ground and killed Him. Little did they know that this was going to bring them shame and judgement and was going to begin the New Covenant.
(Psalm 89:19-52)

 

[Brian2]

You pick and choose what you want to believe because you were taught Pagan sacrifice first before going back and listening to Jesus. You are forced to ignore and gloss over Jesus' objections to those who rejected and killed him.

I did not ignore or gloss over it, I explained it. You are just rejecting whole parts of the OT and the New Testament.
It is good to have a proper understanding of the whole Bible and see how it all fits together as a whole.
There is a reason that the death and resurrection of Jesus is the centre of the Christian religion. It does bring the whole Bible together so we can understand the OT and and fit it with the NT.

 

[Brian2]

‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.​

God shows his Love by revealing the true Father in his Son on earth who was himself Loving and Forgiving without requiring sacrifices. Jesus never required a blood sacrifice to Love and forgive people.

Jesus had the authority to forgive people while He was on earth and has that authority now. Those who believe in Jesus and His sacrifice can avail themselves of that authority.
Do we just make up our own story about Jesus and what we think the gospel should have been, and have a big sort of conspiracy idea about the gospel which is preached today, when it was Jesus who said that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant and that He would give His life as a ransom for many? (Matt 20:28)
Are you the only one who can understand the true gospel?
Do you think that because the gospel was changed that Jesus came to earth for nothing?
Have a great easter,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you celebrate it.

 

[Brian2]

True, but the kingdom is here now, albeit obscured by an overcomplicated religious system. And I agree, it will continue to grow as people return to faith in the Father.

By putting faith in the Son we are putting faith in the Father, the Father who has revealed Himself in history, the history of the Jews.
The Kingdom is here now because we put our faith in what Jesus did and in what the Father did in sending Jesus to die as a ransom for many.

 

[Colt]

Where does Jesus say that they are rejecting His gospel message? Maybe you are imagining that this is what they were rejecting.

Maybe you haven't read closely what Jesus said?

I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.

So the Gospel message angered the Jews to the point that they conspired to kill Jesus.

I think that you imagine that his Gospel message was kill me as a sacrifice for sin because the new message replaced the old message!

 

[Colt]

Jesus had the authority to forgive people while He was on earth and has that authority now. Those who believe in Jesus and His sacrifice can avail themselves of that authority.
Do we just make up our own story about Jesus and what we think the gospel should have been, and have a big sort of conspiracy idea about the gospel which is preached today, when it was Jesus who said that His blood was the blood of the New Covenant and that He would give His life as a ransom for many? (Matt 20:28)
Are you the only one who can understand the true gospel?
Do you think that because the gospel was changed that Jesus came to earth for nothing?
Have a great easter,,,,,,,,,,,,,if you celebrate it.

You are adding sacrifice. God forgives because he has a Loving and forgiving nature, he has always been that way. Forgiveness was never conditional to the savage idea that God couldn't forgive until until he saw his blameless Son dyeing on the cross.

Sacrifice only makes sense to people who don't know God as a forgiving Father, the only thing Jesus ever taught.

 

[Colt]

By putting faith in the Son we are putting faith in the Father, the Father who has revealed Himself in history, the history of the Jews.
The Kingdom is here now because we put our faith in what Jesus did and in what the Father did in sending Jesus to die as a ransom for many.

Jesus taught us to put Faith in the Father and Son. That was his message.

 

[Colt]

I did not ignore or gloss over it, I explained it. You are just rejecting whole parts of the OT and the New Testament.
It is good to have a proper understanding of the whole Bible and see how it all fits together as a whole.
There is a reason that the death and resurrection of Jesus is the centre of the Christian religion. It does bring the whole Bible together so we can understand the OT and and fit it with the NT.

Jesus revealed the true Father which is different than the concept of God in the Old Testament. The authority of the Son is inherent and not derived from the OT scriptures.

 

[Colt]

That good news was what would come after His death and instituting the New Covenant. Jesus did not speak to them plainly so that they could understand,,,,,,,,,,,,He spoke in parables so that they could not understand. How can the Jews reject or accept a gospel they have not understood?
They rejected Jesus their King and threw His crown to the ground and killed Him. Little did they know that this was going to bring them shame and judgement and was going to begin the New Covenant.
(Psalm 89:19-52)

That's the new religion about Jesus, the new gospel. There was "good news" before his death that people heard and were saved by.

 

[Colt]

Were the prophets that they tried to silence by murdering them also sacrifices to bring forth Gods forgiveness?


Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?34Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

 

[ElishaElijah]

When we consider the red letters of Jesus within the 4 gospel accounts and the emergence of the new after-cross and ascension Gospel that evolved latter, then one can separate the 2.

The original Gospel of The Kingdom of Heaven was about salvation via faith in the Father, a whole souled commitment to do God will in our lives. Real, transformative salvation.

Paul's atonement Gospel was "Christ and him crucified" as a sacrifice for the sins of the world. Theoretical theology.

The NT is basically Jesus according to Paul.

God the Father, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, the Apostles all show that Jesus shed His own blood for the sins of the world. Faith in God is to receive and trust that Jesus died and rose from the dead for our sins.
48 Bible verses about Atonement, In Nt

 

[Colt]

God the Father, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, the Apostles all show that Jesus shed His own blood for the sins of the world. Faith in God is to receive and trust that Jesus died and rose from the dead for our sins.
48 Bible verses about Atonement, In Nt

Not true, Jerusalem was punished for rejecting the Son and his message. Atonement was the new self-centered Gospel that replaced the Original, pre-cross Gospel message, salvation by faith in the forgiving Father. Killing Jesus not required.


Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?34

Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Its difficult to understand how anyone could listen to Jesus and conclude that he was hoping to be killed as a sacrifice to God.

Paul's atonement doctrine is in conflict with Jesus' Gospel.


.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Not true, Jerusalem was punished for rejecting the Son and his message. Atonement was the new self-centered Gospel that replaced the Original, pre-cross Gospel message, salvation by faith in the forgiving Father. Killing Jesus not required.


Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. 30And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then,g the measure of the sin of your fathers. 33You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?34

Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Its difficult to understand how anyone could listen to Jesus and conclude that he was hoping to be killed as a sacrifice to God.

Paul's atonement doctrine is in conflicts with Jesus' Gospel.


.

Jesus said He was the sacrifice and atonement, Apostles said this. It is the Truth, just showed you 48 verses, and there are more, the Prophets in the Old Testament saw this, Moses had to make the Tabernacle exactly like God said as a replica of the true tabernacle in Heaven where Jesus presented His own Blood once and for all for us. Any other supposed gospel is a false gospel according to the Scriptures.

 

[Colt]

Jesus said He was the sacrifice and atonement, Apostles said this. It is the Truth, just showed you 48 verses, and there are more, the Prophets in the Old Testament saw this, Moses had to make the Tabernacle exactly like God said as a replica of the true tabernacle in Heaven where Jesus presented His own Blood once and for all for us. Any other supposed gospel is a false gospel according to the Scriptures.

And I showed you what Jesus said, but you have to ignore Jesus to continue in the compromised Gospel of the atonement.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And I showed you what Jesus said, but you have to ignore Jesus to continue in the compromised Gospel of the atonement.

Just sharing this confrontation with the hypocritical religious leaders of the day while disregarding the rest of the Scripture and concluding no sacrifice for sins is needed is a false teaching and error according to the Scriptures.