Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

[Colt]

Just sharing this confrontation with the hypocritical religious leaders of the day while disregarding the rest of the Scripture and concluding no sacrifice for sins is needed is a false teaching and error according to the Scriptures.

I'm going with Jesus, those who killed him also hid behind the scriptures as a way to deny the truth spoken to their hearts. The Jews used the "scriptures" to deny the message of Jesus.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I'm going with Jesus, those who killed him also hid behind the scriptures as a way to deny the truth spoken to their hearts. The Jews used the "scriptures" to deny the message of Jesus.

I’m going with the Word of God, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Everything they say.

 

[Colt]

I’m going with the Word of God, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Everything they say.

The Son incarnate was the "Word of God" and to the extent he was accurately remembered. The Bible books are the "written word" which means they are influenced by mans thinking and beliefs at different times over the ages. The priest class of Judaism as well as the Christian church converted the scriptures that they wrote into "The Word of God" in order to establish their authority. They made the words of holy men equal to the Word of God. This leads to the necessity to extract the spiritual truths of the Bible and leave the rest to die on the vine.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The Son incarnate was the "Word of God" and to the extent he was accurately remembered. The Bible books are the "written word" which means they are influenced by mans thinking and beliefs at different times over the ages. The priest class of Judaism as well as the Christian church converted the scriptures that they wrote into "The Word of God" in order to establish their authority. They made the words of holy men equal to the Word of God. This leads to the necessity to extract the spiritual truths of the Bible and leave the rest to die on the vine.

You’re wrong about that and that’s the reason people justify making up their own meaning of Scripture and get shipwrecked. Jesus Christ validated the Scriptures and confronted the people who made up their own false interpretations and meaning of Scriptures.

 

[Colt]

Jesus invalidated the concept of God in parts of the Israelites pretentious, vastly exaggerated, Old Testament history. He called them “Blind guides of a nation”.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Jesus invalidated the concept of God in parts of the Israelites pretentious, vastly exaggerated, Old Testament history. He called them “Blind guides of a nation”.

And yes they were blind guides but not because of the Old Testament history but because they perverted things and contradicted what God said and meant in the Scriptures. More concerned with appearance than character.

 

[Colt]

And yes they were blind guides but not because of the Old Testament history but because they perverted things and contradicted what God said and meant in the Scriptures. More concerned with appearance than character.

According to Jeremiah they mishandled the word as well. Not that such corruption isn't obvious in the Israelites claims.


Jeremiah 8:8-9

8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?
9 The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the Lord,
what kind of wisdom do they have?

 

[halbhh]

Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?

A 2nd (but important) topic you touched on -- the specific idea that Jesus dies to forgive our future sins is contingent on our confession. (1rst John chapter 1)

Like the prodigal son (Luke chapter 15), we can be "dead" in our sins, but if we confess (as did the prodigal son) then we become "alive again", as Christ says it. Luke 15:32 But it was fitting to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"

 

[Brian2]

Maybe you haven't read closely what Jesus said?

I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires.

So the Gospel message angered the Jews to the point that they conspired to kill Jesus.

I think that you imagine that his Gospel message was kill me as a sacrifice for sin because the new message replaced the old message!

Jesus did say many things to the Jews. The Jewish people in general seems to accept it but the learned ones, in charge had difficulty. What did He say that you call His gospel message. I know He taught faith in the Father, but that was part of Judaism already.

 

[Brian2]

You are adding sacrifice. God forgives because he has a Loving and forgiving nature, he has always been that way. Forgiveness was never conditional to the savage idea that God couldn't forgive until until he saw his blameless Son dyeing on the cross.

Sacrifice only makes sense to people who don't know God as a forgiving Father, the only thing Jesus ever taught.

The OT sacrifice system showed something about God surely. He wanted faith in Himself and what He said. So the Jews believed that sacrifices were what God had ordained and we Christians see that Jesus sacrifice is what God has ordained. So we believe what God has told us about it.
Jesus sacrifice shows us how much He loves us and wants to forgive us, but the gospel message also is not one that tells us we can do what we want and be forgiven, it is one of repentance also.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus taught us to put Faith in the Father and Son. That was his message.

And that is what we do when we believe that what Jesus said is true. He came as a ransom sacrifice and to die as that sacrifice.
If we just put faith in the Father, that is a good thing, but put faith in the Father for what He did and said that He would do.
Do you just ignore the death of Jesus as if it did not happen? Did the death of Jesus do anything or was it just an unfortunate accident?
Is the gospel message that was preached true for you or is it all a man made invention to justify Jesus death?

 

[Brian2]

Jesus revealed the true Father which is different than the concept of God in the Old Testament. The authority of the Son is inherent and not derived from the OT scriptures.

The OT does however tell us about the Son, the Messiah, and so allows us to see Jesus as that one from the OT who fulfilled those prophecies and not just a man with a big mouth and a bunch of imaginative followers who made up stuff about Him.

 

[Brian2]

That's the new religion about Jesus, the new gospel. There was "good news" before his death that people heard and were saved by.

We can find that the New Gospel was taught in prophecy in the OT however.

 

[Colt]

Jesus did say many things to the Jews. The Jewish people in general seems to accept it but the learned ones, in charge had difficulty. What did He say that you call His gospel message. I know He taught faith in the Father, but that was part of Judaism already.

Exactly! Jesus set men free from the unnecessary religious yoke that Judaism had drifted into and returned the believer to what was/is central, a faith based ongoing relationship with our Heavenly Father. Having returned to, or begun for the first time in our lives, a personal relationship with God, salvation can be taken for granted.

Religious ritualism continually replaced the simple, fundamental child-parent relationship between God and man.

Faith isn’t a “part” it’s the whole.

Again, the religion of Jesus was a personal relationship not an oppressive institutional religious Yoke.

 

[Colt]

And that is what we do when we believe that what Jesus said is true. He came as a ransom sacrifice and to die as that sacrifice.
If we just put faith in the Father, that is a good thing, but put faith in the Father for what He did and said that He would do.
Do you just ignore the death of Jesus as if it did not happen? Did the death of Jesus do anything or was it just an unfortunate accident?
Is the gospel message that was preached true for you or is it all a man made invention to justify Jesus death?

If the central focus of Christianity's atonement doctrine were true then you would find Jesus teaching that he came to be a sinless sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus never even used the world atonement. Jesus never taught the doctrine of the atonement. Jesus never referred to himself as a sacrificial lamb.

 

[Brian2]

Exactly! Jesus set men free from the unnecessary religious yoke that Judaism had drifted into and returned the believer to what was/is central, a faith based ongoing relationship with our Heavenly Father. Having returned to, or begun for the first time in our lives, a personal relationship with God, salvation can be taken for granted.

Religious ritualism continually replaced the simple, fundamental child-parent relationship between God and man.

Faith isn’t a “part” it’s the whole.

Again, the religion of Jesus was a personal relationship not an oppressive institutional religious Yoke.

That sounds right, and Jesus is the way to the Father and a continuing faith in Jesus seems also to mean not just a faith in the Jesus of the 3 years of ministry on earth but a faith in what He said He would do and what He did and a faith in the risen Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

If the central focus of Christianity's atonement doctrine were true then you would find Jesus teaching that he came to be a sinless sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus never even used the world atonement. Jesus never taught the doctrine of the atonement. Jesus never referred to himself as a sacrificial lamb.

But Jesus did say He would give His life as a ransom for many, and that is what He did.
If we go just by the words of Jesus we can see what He meant and if we add to those words the words from prophecy and the words from the rest of the New Testament, we get the full picture.
Jesus life was the price paid for eternal life for us.

 

[Colt]

But Jesus did say He would give His life as a ransom for many, and that is what He did.
If we go just by the words of Jesus we can see what He meant and if we add to those words the words from prophecy and the words from the rest of the New Testament, we get the full picture.
Jesus life was the price paid for eternal life for us.

That's news to Jesus -----> "But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”"

Killing Jesus was the work of the devil!

Jesus doesn't agree with this theory that he was supposed to be killed by the Jews as a sacrifice for your sins. He had been teaching that we receive forgiveness directly from the Father who has always been forgiving.

The Original gospel of Jesus was contaminated by old ideas.

 

[Brian2]

That's news to Jesus -----> "But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”"

Killing Jesus was the work of the devil!

Jesus doesn't agree with this theory that he was supposed to be killed by the Jews as a sacrifice for your sins. He had been teaching that we receive forgiveness directly from the Father who has always been forgiving.

The Original gospel of Jesus was contaminated by old ideas.

No it is not news to Jesus. He did say that He is giving His life as a ransom for many and He did say that His blood is the blood of the New Covenant. You can ignore what Jesus said if you want I guess. It's up to you.
If you want Jesus to be nothing more than a messenger from the Father to tell people to have faith in the Father that is your business.
I don't think it is a good thing to ignore that however and make up your own theories about what the gospel should have been. It is what it is.
No doubt God would have loved it if the Jews had obeyed the laws and He would have loved it if Adam had not sinned and etc etc. God works with what He has and brings good out of situations even if the bad situations are ultimately the result of the devil's work in the world.
When you say that the original gospel of Jesus was contaminated by old ideas. If you mean the old ideas that God gave to the Jews about sacrifice and the old ideas that God put in the words of the prophets about someone who would suffer and be killed to bear our sins, then yes the Gospel is completely contaminated with those ideas and they are God's ideas.
It is God who tells us how things are and what He is doing. If we don't like it then we can come to the Father as the Jews do, without the intercession of Jesus the High Priest in the order of Melchizedek who was appointed by His Father and offered His own life as sacrifice.

 

[ElishaElijah]

If the central focus of Christianity's atonement doctrine were true then you would find Jesus teaching that he came to be a sinless sacrifice to atone for the sins of mankind. Jesus never even used the world atonement. Jesus never taught the doctrine of the atonement. Jesus never referred to himself as a sacrificial lamb.

That's news to Jesus -----> "But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”"

Killing Jesus was the work of the devil!

Jesus doesn't agree with this theory that he was supposed to be killed by the Jews as a sacrifice for your sins. He had been teaching that we receive forgiveness directly from the Father who has always been forgiving.

The Original gospel of Jesus was contaminated by old ideas.

Jesus is the lamb of God to take away the sins of the world just like John the Baptist said and God showed him. Jesus did forgive sins, heal the sick, raise the dead to prove He was the Son of God, Emmanuel. This didn’t deal with the need for people to be born again or death inherited from Adam. That’s why He had to die, present His blood in the the true tabernacle in Heaven for us. Jesus is the once and for all eternal sacrifice for sin and death. The New Testament after Jesus rose is the whole Gospel and ministry of the Holy Spirit, not a false teaching of Paul or anything of the sort.

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7-15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬