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Are you a born sinner? Is anyone?

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?
We are not guilty of anything at birth -but it doesn't take too long before we break some law of God.
It is inevitable -or at least very near it -that we will sin.
Jesus died for the reason you stated, but we are required to do things to essentially have that apply to us -such as repentance and asking for forgiveness, baptism for the remission of sins, receiving God's spirit "of power, love and of a sound mind" which empowers us to truly overcome sin -actual and spiritual -and begin to have a Godlike mind.
There is forgiveness -but more importantly the changing of our nature.
We are literally somewhere between animals and God -and we must continually move toward being like God.
Our ways need to change before we can get off this rock and not do all this anywhere else.
We are to inhabit and create throughout the universe (search formed to be inhabited) as immortals, but that will require willing and incorruptible adherence to God's government so it does not become a miserable mess.

As it says, the mortal must put on immortality -the corruptible must put on incorruption. He will complete our perfection, but we must put in effort.
If we sin, we need to confess and ask for forgiveness -always -until we are made perfect.
 
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Thief

Rogue Theologian
being like God.
yeah.....and however

it was the serpent in the garden that pointed out to Eve....
and you will become as heaven
if you partake of the fruit

it was the Carpenter who gave instruction....
Be thou perfect.....as your Father in heaven is perfect

which side of the fence are we on?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
But you do like to tell us:D that our Prophets, God, Messengers are a scam.
So, all the rest is maya, illusion, fata morgana ... scam
Hence I said "also @Aupmanyav is ... scam:D" (and @stvdv too:D)
If there are big claims about God, soul and prophets etc., and no evidence, then this is what I am led to.
Yeah, I agree, the perceived world is only an illusion (which includes Aupmanyav too).
Aupmanyav is a scam at one level of observation and is Brahman at another level. You too are that. All things are that.
Like you said 'So'ham', 'Tattwamasi', 'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma'.
You get it but then you say different things. In your heart you too know what scams are, then why do you return to scams?
 

SA Huguenot

Well-Known Member
If you are not religious why do you believe this? Can't you recognize a scam when you see it?
Christianity wants you to accept the free gift but in order to accept it you have to admit you are a sinner.

Romans 5 KJV

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


As a Baha’i I do not believe that Adam and Eve were real people or that there was a Garden of Eden in which they lived. I believe it was a story with metaphorical meanings.

“We must reflect a little: if the literal meaning of this story were attributed to a wise man, certainly all would logically deny that this arrangement, this invention, could have emanated from an intelligent being. Therefore, this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 123


To read the entire chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Baha’is do not believe in original sin, that sin was inherited from Adam and Eve, so there is no need for redemption from original sin. Baha’is believe that man was born good but has a lower material nature that has the propensity to sin. One possible meaning of the serpent in the Adam and Eve story is attachment to the human world, or the material world, as opposed to God and the spiritual world. When Adam was born and entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the spiritual world, in the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil... This attachment to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in our midst and continues and endures... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and their exalted position.
Of corse you are welcome to believe that Adam and Eve is some metaphorical meaning.
And that original sin does not exist.

But again, from the Bible's point of view, Adam and Eve did exist, and they died, and their ages were even recorded.
Their children were recorded etc.
Now what metaphorical meaning can this have, except that Adam and Eve lived, they died being over 800 years of age, they had children, and their names were recorded.

Please answer the above if possible.
Secondly, if you do not believe in original sin, it would mean that you MUST accept that the whole Universe is without corruption.
This includes death, pain, disease, suffering...because why would your god create you in this sorrowfull state?
if you say you were born without sin, tell me why did you aged every second after you were born.
Tell me why you are busy dying?

The only reason why you are ageing and dying, is because your natural existance is not perfect, but determined to die!
If you were perfect in your Natural existance, you will be immortal, but you are not.

Now, this is where the Gospel is different than all other religions.
It promises "Eternal Life" by changeing your sinfull Natural existance into one that is perfect that does not deteriorate.

You see, this is the difference between Jesus who gives eternal life, and all the orher religions that presumes there will be a ressurection, where we will raise as we were alive on Earth.
The Gospel is clear, you will when accepting Jesus as your saviour, and ask forgiveness to Him, receive a new spiritual covering.
One which is able to stand before God.
those that do not have this covering, will in their Natural and spiritual nature keep on burning, wherever they are in life hereafter, because God is omnipresent, and your sinfull nature will keep on burning.
This was why God created a place removed from the rest which is called hell, where all these souls in torment will be collected.
far enough removed to not be seen by the souls who chose God as their friend.

To end off, if it was not for the Bible's literal interperetation, Newton would have never developed his scientific models, and the Western world would never achieved the scientific results we have today.
Therefore, to say the Bible must be interpereted metaphorically, is an error.
 
The day of the Lord came as a thief in the night which is why most missed people missed it.
We are now living in the Day of God, even though thus far few have realized it (Matthew 7:13-14).

“In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 13
How so, if the Day of the Lord came everything would be burned up. Jesus Christ is the narrow way, the world system is the wide path.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Jesus went first to his own but his own did not accept his gospel.

“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would c do what Abraham did. 40As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the works of your own father.”

Knowing he would be rejected isn’t the same as wanting to be rejected. It was the will of the devil that his gospel be rejected by the Jews.

Then after Jesus left a new compromised gospel developed among Peter and Paul. It was the Pagan atonement doctrine.

Interesting. But of course God knew that He would be rejected and that was factored in. God used evil acts for good. It was the gospel that God had planned for the Jews and the gentiles. Many Jews accepted Jesus.
 

Suave

Simulated character
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?

As an infant, I lacked the cognitive self-awareness in order to have been rightfully convicted of any wrongdoing.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Interesting. But of course God knew that He would be rejected and that was factored in. God used evil acts for good. It was the gospel that God had planned for the Jews and the gentiles. Many Jews accepted Jesus.
So Jesus was just faking sincerity in going first to the Jews with the "message" they killed him for? When Jesus scolded the Jews for rejecting the original Gospel, he was just acting? And when God the Father punished Israel for rejecting the Gospel and killing the Son, It was all a big convoluted, double minded act?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Its said we are all born sinners but yet jesus died for all of man's sins... past, present and future....so how are we born sinners if jesus already died to wash away our present and future sins?

Without a sinless Jesus to balance the Scales of Justice for us there would be No hope of a resurrection.
No hope of future life for the dead because we can't resurrect oneself or another, so we need someone who can resurrect us. Jesus can and will - Revelation 1:18.
True Jesus died for all, but please notice the word ' IF ' found at 1 John 1:7.
" IF " we are walking in light (spiritual light) .......
So, although Jesus died for all does Not mean all will follow Jesus.
This is why Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
As an infant, I lacked the cognitive self-awareness in order to have been rightfully convicted of any wrongdoing.
However, because of inherited adamic sin ( imperfection from fallen father Adam ) is why we end up sinning.
An innocent infant does Not grow up to became an innocent adult.
If we could stop sinning we would Not die, because we can't stop sinning is why we die.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
How so, if the Day of the Lord came everything would be burned up. Jesus Christ is the narrow way, the world system is the wide path.
Because 'Earth abides forever' ( Ecclesiastes 1:4 B ) everything will Not be burned up.
Earth is Not at fault, and that is why Revelation 11:18 B says God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth.
The 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' does Not breathe fire but execution for the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15.
 
Because 'Earth abides forever' ( Ecclesiastes 1:4 B ) everything will Not be burned up.
Earth is Not at fault, and that is why Revelation 11:18 B says God will bring to ruin those ruining the Earth.
The 'executional words from Jesus' mouth' does Not breathe fire but execution for the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Rev. 19:14-15.
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:10-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How so, if the Day of the Lord came everything would be burned up. Jesus Christ is the narrow way, the world system is the wide path.
Those verses about being burned up are metaphorical, not literal.

Jesus Christ was once the narrow way when few people believed in Him, but Jesus Christ is no longer the narrow way because about 30% of the world population is now Christians.

Given that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, Christianity is now "the wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Just as Christianity was the small gate and the narrow road that led to eternal life in the first centuries when there were few Christians, the Baha'i Faith is now the small gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in the first centuries since its inception.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Many or most people do not believe in the Baha’i Faith because it is the new religion at the narrow gate. Below are the primary reasons why most people do not believe in a new religion.

The religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. If they are irreligious they have become fatigued by the already established religions and thus just find it more annoying that a new one has popped up.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
 
Those verses about being burned up are metaphorical, not literal.

Jesus Christ was once the narrow way when few people believed in Him, but Jesus Christ is no longer the narrow way because about 30% of the world population is now Christians.

Given that Christianity is the largest religion in the world, Christianity is now "the wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

Just as Christianity was the small gate and the narrow road that led to eternal life in the first centuries when there were few Christians, the Baha'i Faith is now the small gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in the first centuries since its inception.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Many or most people do not believe in the Baha’i Faith because it is the new religion at the narrow gate. Below are the primary reasons why most people do not believe in a new religion.

The religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new Messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of Messengers of God or they think they are all phonies. If they are irreligious they have become fatigued by the already established religions and thus just find it more annoying that a new one has popped up.

It is difficult to get through the narrow gate because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no god. They follow the broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
When Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense. Clearly says in Peter and literally going to happen like that. Revelation says a New Heaven and Earth. Be a good idea to line up with the Scriptures instead of twisting them to match a false view.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
When Scripture makes sense, seek no other sense. Clearly says in Peter and literally going to happen like that. Revelation says a New Heaven and Earth. Be a good idea to line up with the Scriptures instead of twisting them to match a false view.
Revelation says a New Heaven and Earth. It would be a good idea to know what that actually means instead of assuming you know.
 
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